pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[MorningGlory]

22 hours ago, worthy said:

1 Corinthians 15:52

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Matthew 13:26-30

²⁶ But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. ²⁷ So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ ²⁸ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ ²⁹ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Sound like post trib to me.

.Post Trib requires the Lord to gather His own and take us to Heaven and then turn around and bring us back again.  Not logical for a God who is te father of logic

[Kindle]

1 hour ago, MorningGlory said:

And yet you don't KNOW whether PreTrib is a fallacy or not.  You are only stating an opinion.

you give me scripture without twisting It to prove a man made theory to distract the body of christ

1 hour ago, MorningGlory said:

So what is YOUR theory on the timing of the Rapture, Worthy?

are you asking this because you think I said I knew the time

Mark 13:32

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

But do know this there is no pre-trib rapture no matter how hard you try to make It It will never be a realty. If you want to say that the pre-trib rapture is true please do not use scripture to do it. Because once again there is no scripture that supports you point of view. Unless you twist and thwart scripture. It is man made theory but if you so choose to hold onto this theory go ahead It doesn't bother me. Just know on when it happened you won't every be able to say nobody told you.

 

1 hour ago, MorningGlory said:

Please post the Scripture verse/chapter.

1 Corinthians 15:52,Matthew 13:26-30

1 hour ago, MorningGlory said:

.Post Trib requires the Lord to gather His own and take us to Heaven and then turn around and bring us back again.  Not logical for a God who is te father of logic

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

1 Corinthians 15:52

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

²⁶ But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. ²⁷ So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ ²⁸ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ ²⁹ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

First it seems reasonable logical  that Mt 24:21 and Rev 7:14 are referring to the same event.
Though Matthew 24 speaks of "great tribulation" rather than "THE great tribulation",  it says that the tribulation it is referring to is the greatest that will ever be. That and given the context of Mt 24, it seems clear that Jesus is referring to The Great Tribulation. Thus I believe we can conclusively say that these verses are referring to the same event.

Mt 24:29 immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2Thess 2 refers to the coming of the Lord in which Paul believed he and the early Church would be "gathered to him". Notice the phrase "our being gathered to him".He indicates that their being gathered to the Lord would not occur until after the antiChrist is revealed and after the apostacy (Yes it's literally "apostasia" in the Greek) Jesus alluded to the apostacy in Mt 24:10 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other." And consistent with 2Thess, Jesus continues in Mt 24 by speaking about the antiChrist, all of which constitute elements of the great tribulation. Then Jesus speaks of the gathering in Mt 24:31  "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." But if Paul was talking about a different gathering which occurred prior to these events then he would have simply told the Thessalonians that the reason why they should know that gathering hadn't occur is because they had not been raptured. This proves that the rapture/resurrection of which Paul anticipated for himself and the early church would occur after the tribulation had started, and as such disproves a pre-trib rapture.

Joel 2:31 says, "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (And Peter quotes this in Acts 2 as applying to the church) And 2Thess 2:2,3 "not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed." Since the raptures occurs on the day of the Lord, and since the day of the Lord doesn't start until after events associated with the great tribulation occur - the rebellion/apostacy, the revealing of the antiChrist, the sun turned to darkness - this disproves the idea of a pre-trib rapture.

We clearly see that the day which Jesus is referring to occurs after the great tribulation mention in Mt 24:29, and yet he uses the same kind of phrase - not knowing that day, and like a thief - which pre-tribbers allege only could refer to a pre-trib day. Secondly notice that while Paul describes the day of the Lord as a thief in the night, he also says, "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." 1Thess 5:4 Therefore "thief in the night" aspect of the coming of the Lord only applies to the unprepared - to those who don't keep themselves alert.

Despite the fact that the Day of the Lord in which the rapture occurs comes post-trib it will nonetheless come as a surprise on the unprepared. But how can it be a surprise? First of all is the strong delusion which God sends, "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." 2Thess 2:11 Secondly Jesus mentions in Luke 21:34 "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap."

IF you want to question what it say in the bible that is spiritually inspired go ahead

Edited March 22, 2016 by worthy

[SINNERSAVED]

scripture tells me, in the end times that people will not want to hear sound doctrine, and will fall for things that tickle there ears ,

 hearing from those that give them what they want to hear?

scripture also says that in the hard times and tribulation, remember I told you while I was with you, that you would have tribulation, and to be of good cheer, for I have over come the world , do not be afraid of the one that can kill the body , and not the soul , but fear the one that can kill the body and the soul,

 I don't think we need to explain any thing if we are talking bible language , for the word of God speaks for it self, and I love the word of God, and Hos grace is sufficient for me, amen ..

[simplejeff]

The Father doesn't speak empty words.

His emissary to the assembly was given a message by revelation 

to comfort them .

See, someone had told them that Yahshua HaMashiach had come back already for those who were saved.

This , of course, was a lie.  Yahshua HaMashiach had not come back and taken those who were saved.

Why did someone say that He had ? 

Good question.  The answer is simple.

It also doesn't matter. 

The Father knew it was upsetting the immature believers who had called upon His Name, those who had 

repented and been immersed in Yahshua's Name.  

The GOOD SHEPHERD was watching over HIS SHEEP, as always.

When evil men tried to trick HIS SHEEP with that lie, ((that HE had already returned and had taken those who were ready))

Yahshua the GOOD SHEPHERD knew it already ((HE ALWAYS knew it, even before creating the earth : HE's NEVER caught by surprise)).

Those who were trusting and relying on Yahweh believed HIS WORD through the emissary.

They continued in union with Yahshua, and in fellowship with one another with JOY and PEACE and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Oh,  later some may have fallen away - we're not told; it's not for us to know....

But the Father had delivered HIS WORD/ TRUTH / to them at the appointed time, exactly as planned all along. 

Everyone with a Bible can read all about it.

 

[SINNERSAVED]

9 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

The Father doesn't speak empty words.

His emissary to the assembly was given a message by revelation 

to comfort them .

See, someone had told them that Yahshua HaMashiach had come back already for those who were saved.

This , of course, was a lie.  Yahshua HaMashiach had not come back and taken those who were saved.

Why did someone say that He had ? 

Good question.  The answer is simple.

It also doesn't matter. 

The Father knew it was upsetting the immature believers who had called upon His Name, those who had 

repented and been immersed in Yahshua's Name.  

The GOOD SHEPHERD was watching over HIS SHEEP, as always.

When evil men tried to trick HIS SHEEP with that lie, ((that HE had already returned and had taken those who were ready))

Yahshua the GOOD SHEPHERD knew it already ((HE ALWAYS knew it, even before creating the earth : HE's NEVER caught by surprise)).

Those who were trusting and relying on Yahweh believed HIS WORD through the emissary.

They continued in union with Yahshua, and in fellowship with one another with JOY and PEACE and RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Oh,  later some may have fallen away - we're not told; it's not for us to know....

But the Father had delivered HIS WORD/ TRUTH / to them at the appointed time, exactly as planned all along. 

Everyone with a Bible can read all about it.

 

I like that last line brother ,everyone with a bible can read all about it, that's really funny, ? lol

[simplejeff]

9 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I like that last line brother ,everyone with a bible can read all about it, that's really funny, ? lol

Well, most people on earth never do.

Multitudes of others decide what to believe FIRST(((BEFORE reading the BIBLE))),

THEN they go read the BIBLE to prove it (((to PROVE((as if possible)) what they already decided to believe))

..... ((many teachers love that method - GET their flock to believe something first....... then tell them NOT to believe anything different , .... then they have them hook , line and sinker))

[Esther4:14]

1 hour ago, simplejeff said:

Well, most people on earth never do.

Multitudes of others decide what to believe FIRST(((BEFORE reading the BIBLE))),

THEN they go read the BIBLE to prove it (((to PROVE((as if possible)) what they already decided to believe))

..... ((many teachers love that method - GET their flock to believe something first....... then tell them NOT to believe anything different , .... then they have them hook , line and sinker))

You make such a incredible point Jeff.  It does seem like people, even believers in Christ, decide what to believe first; and can become very stubborn when they believe they are able to prove it without ever recognizing that this manner of learning is no different than the way we approached learning before we are saved from the world.  I think that this is why it is more important to create an atmosphere where people have the freedom to change as they grow in Christ.  

[MorningGlory]

13 hours ago, worthy said:

you give me scripture without twisting It to prove a man made theory to distract the body of christ

are you asking this because you think I said I knew the time

Mark 13:32

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

But do know this there is no pre-trib rapture no matter how hard you try to make It It will never be a realty. If you want to say that the pre-trib rapture is true please do not use scripture to do it. Because once again there is no scripture that supports you point of view. Unless you twist and thwart scripture. It is man made theory but if you so choose to hold onto this theory go ahead It doesn't bother me. Just know on when it happened you won't every be able to say nobody told you.

 

1 Corinthians 15:52,Matthew 13:26-30

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

1 Corinthians 15:52

in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

²⁶ But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. ²⁷ So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ ²⁸ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ ²⁹ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

First it seems reasonable logical  that Mt 24:21 and Rev 7:14 are referring to the same event.
Though Matthew 24 speaks of "great tribulation" rather than "THE great tribulation",  it says that the tribulation it is referring to is the greatest that will ever be. That and given the context of Mt 24, it seems clear that Jesus is referring to The Great Tribulation. Thus I believe we can conclusively say that these verses are referring to the same event.

Mt 24:29 immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mt 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

2Thess 2 refers to the coming of the Lord in which Paul believed he and the early Church would be "gathered to him". Notice the phrase "our being gathered to him".He indicates that their being gathered to the Lord would not occur until after the antiChrist is revealed and after the apostacy (Yes it's literally "apostasia" in the Greek) Jesus alluded to the apostacy in Mt 24:10 "At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other." And consistent with 2Thess, Jesus continues in Mt 24 by speaking about the antiChrist, all of which constitute elements of the great tribulation. Then Jesus speaks of the gathering in Mt 24:31  "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." But if Paul was talking about a different gathering which occurred prior to these events then he would have simply told the Thessalonians that the reason why they should know that gathering hadn't occur is because they had not been raptured. This proves that the rapture/resurrection of which Paul anticipated for himself and the early church would occur after the tribulation had started, and as such disproves a pre-trib rapture.

Joel 2:31 says, "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." (And Peter quotes this in Acts 2 as applying to the church) And 2Thess 2:2,3 "not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed." Since the raptures occurs on the day of the Lord, and since the day of the Lord doesn't start until after events associated with the great tribulation occur - the rebellion/apostacy, the revealing of the antiChrist, the sun turned to darkness - this disproves the idea of a pre-trib rapture.

We clearly see that the day which Jesus is referring to occurs after the great tribulation mention in Mt 24:29, and yet he uses the same kind of phrase - not knowing that day, and like a thief - which pre-tribbers allege only could refer to a pre-trib day. Secondly notice that while Paul describes the day of the Lord as a thief in the night, he also says, "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." 1Thess 5:4 Therefore "thief in the night" aspect of the coming of the Lord only applies to the unprepared - to those who don't keep themselves alert.

Despite the fact that the Day of the Lord in which the rapture occurs comes post-trib it will nonetheless come as a surprise on the unprepared. But how can it be a surprise? First of all is the strong delusion which God sends, "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." 2Thess 2:11 Secondly Jesus mentions in Luke 21:34 "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap."

IF you want to question what it say in the bible that is spiritually inspired go ahead

One's Rapture belief doesn't affect salvation.  In other words, whether you're Pre, Mid or Post Trib doesn't make one bit of difference to your eternity.  You've posted nothing above that proves or disproves anything.  I don't question the Bible and I don't insist that I KNOW what God's plan is.  To do so is a waste of time and based on pride. 

[Ezra]

4 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

One's Rapture belief doesn't affect salvation.  

True. It's interesting to note that the OP has uncovered the fact that more people believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture than otherwise. Yet the term "fake" is there, which is basically an insult.

[MorningGlory]

13 hours ago, worthy said:

you give me scripture without twisting It to prove a man made theory to distract the body of christ

 

You want ME to give YOU Scripture that proves a man made theory to distract the Body of Christ? What does that even mean?  No, I'm not giving you any such thing.  No one knows the timeline of God for sure.  Everything said here is sheer opinion, even what I say myself.