pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[HAZARD]

 

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If no one will be raptured after the tribulation, and Christ will only return with the saints to set up His kingdom, then why does 1 Thessalonians 4:17 say when the dead in Christ rise first, and then those of us who remain are taken up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  Why does it say this is how we will always be with the Lord?"

 

It says this because this happens at the rapture before the tribulation. The dead bodies left in the graves will be reunited with the saints who were taken to Heaven when Christ died and returned to heaven after he rose from the dead.  Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 4:7-11; Acts 1:11). And those of us alive at the time will join them and be taken to Heaven. Then, after the tribulation, we will return with Him to help set up His Kingdom. Read my previous posts its all there.

No one can show us one Scripture which teaches, Jesus will take people to Heaven to live with Him there forever, after the tribulation, not one

[Esther4:14]

34 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

 

 

It says this because this happens at the rapture before the tribulation. The dead bodies left in the graves will be reunited with the saints who were taken to Heaven when Christ died and returned to heaven after he rose from the dead.  Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 4:7-11; Acts 1:11). And those of us alive at the time will join them and be taken to Heaven. Then, after the tribulation, we will return with Him to help set up His Kingdom. Read my previous posts its all there.

No one can show us one Scripture which teaches, Jesus will take people to Heaven to live with Him there forever, after the tribulation, not one

I think you are right; however, everything that you asserted demonstrates a pretribulation rapture conflicts with everything in the book of Revelation.  The book of Revelation says that all those things happen in Revelation 20 after the tribulation, after the millennial reign of Christ, after all these things.  Then, there will be a rapture.  

[HAZARD]

43 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

I think you are right; however, everything that you asserted demonstrates a pretribulation rapture conflicts with everything in the book of Revelation.  The book of Revelation says that all those things happen in Revelation 20 after the tribulation, after the millennial reign of Christ, after all these things.  Then, there will be a rapture.  

Hi Esther4:14

Not my assertions, its all there in the book of Revelation. Apart from what's written in there, and the rest of the Bible, I know nothing?

Revelation, The book of revelation is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22.

To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, in Rev. 4:1 after he had written the vision of Christ in chapter one and the things concerning the churches in chapters two and three, John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches. If the things of Rev. 4:1 through the rest of the book must be after the churches, then they must be fulfilled after the churches and not during the time of the churches.

This is proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfillment of everything in Rev. 4-22.

If we will take literally and consecutively the events of these chapters and believe that they will happen after the rapture of the church, nothing in the book will be hard to understand.

[Esther4:14]

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Hi Esther4:14

Not my assertions, its all there in the book of Revelation. Apart from what's written in there, and the rest of the Bible, I know nothing?

Revelation, The book of revelation is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22.

To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, in Rev. 4:1 after he had written the vision of Christ in chapter one and the things concerning the churches in chapters two and three, John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches. If the things of Rev. 4:1 through the rest of the book must be after the churches, then they must be fulfilled after the churches and not during the time of the churches.

This is proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfillment of everything in Rev. 4-22.

If we will take literally and consecutively the events of these chapters and believe that they will happen after the rapture of the church, nothing in the book will be hard to understand.

Then, we can agree that the verses from 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 describe the same events that happen in Revelation 20 as well? 

I can understand what you are saying to a point.  The church is not spoken to directly after Revelation chapter 4.  We can only speculate that this means that they are not present after this.  

However, this does not demonstrate that the verses used to support the pretribulation rapture, as a result of what you present in your argument, are not referring to the events that take place in Revelation 20.  It would appear that 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are directly speaking to the events that are described in Revelation 20.  

Therefore, why would this same thing happen twice, once before the tribulation, and once after the millennium?   

[ENOCH2010]

11 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

Then, we can agree that the verses from 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 describe the same events that happen in Revelation 20 as well? 

I can understand what you are saying to a point.  The church is not spoken to directly after Revelation chapter 4.  We can only speculate that this means that they are not present after this.  

However, this does not demonstrate that the verses used to support the pretribulation rapture, as a result of what you present in your argument, are not referring to the events that take place in Revelation 20.  It would appear that 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are directly speaking to the events that are described in Revelation 20.  

Therefore, why would this same thing happen twice, once before the tribulation, and once after the millennium?   

The rapture happens at the same time as the first resurrection, at the start of the 1000 year reign. The second resurrection happens after the 1000 year reign. There is no other resurrection of a mass group of bodies to meet the Lord in the air written about in the Bible, so there can't be a pre-trib rapture without adding another resurrection to the word of God. Hazard or Ester can either of you show us the pre-trib resurrection in the Bible? Verse and chapter please.....

[Esther4:14]

3 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The rapture happens at the same time as the first resurrection, at the start of the 1000 year reign. The second resurrection happens after the 1000 year reign. There is no other resurrection of a mass group of bodies to meet the Lord in the air written about in the Bible, so there can't be a pre-trib rapture without adding another resurrection to the word of God. Hazard or Ester can either of you show us the pre-trib resurrection in the Bible? Verse and chapter please.....

Well since, I don't believe the pretribulation rapture is demonstrated in scripture, no I cannot show you verse and chapter.  

However, the Bible does talk about meeting the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:12), which happens after the 1000 year reign, not before the tribulation.   

 

[ENOCH2010]

2 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

Well since, I don't believe the pretribulation rapture is demonstrated in scripture, no I cannot show you verse and chapter.  

However, the Bible does talk about meeting the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 20:5, Revelation 20:12), which happens after the 1000 year reign, not before the tribulation.   

 

How do you get the second coming after the 1000 year reign?

[n2thelight]

On 4/21/2016 at 6:26 AM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Perhaps people are looking to scripture, and seeing a bodily resurrection:

• For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
• Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
• For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection
• "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
• 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 
• Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
• 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

Those are a few passages that may have misled me, but they sort of sound like a bodily resurrection to me! It may not be flesh as we know it, not the same body, but it IS a body, not a body-less spirit.

If we will be like HIm, and He has flesh and bones, then you can connect the dots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He did not go to heaven in His flesh,He was transfigured,to fulfill the prophecy that His body would not see corruption

[n2thelight]

On 4/20/2016 at 7:51 PM, MorningGlory said:

Can you post Scripture to back that up, n2?

King James Bible Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[other one]

7 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Yes, it does exist that's for sure. Where nimrod thought Heaven was has nothing to do with where it actually is.

There are two obvious clues as to where heaven is in the supposedly universe if we just believe what we read and not try and add anything to the obvious. When Lucifer decided to invade heaven He said that he would exalt his throne above the stars of God: upon the mount of the congregation IN THE SIDES OF THE NORTH.

Isa 14:13, For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

God also tells us in the Psalms;

Psalm 75:6, For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. V. 7, But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another.

If promotion comes neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south, but from the Lord (or the north), then Heaven the home of God now is located in the North from the Earth (V. 6-7). This is also confirmed in Isaiah 14:12-14, as I showed earlier, where it is revealed that Lucifer ascended into Heaven from the sides of the north.

 

But Nimrod was trying to do something at the tower that God said he could do if he left him alone to do it.......    and unless they were trying to do something other than build a tall tower, that could not be the case (unless you are a flat earth believer).

You are using directions but I don't see a reference point to start from.     Yes Lucifer  ascended into Heaven from the sides of the north.......   sides of what and north of what.    You are just assuming that it is north from earth......   and where would north from earth be...   one doesn't use that terminology once you leave the planet unless you are a flat earther.