Contemporary Daniel 7 interpretation

[Spock]

Greetings fellow prophecy students,

Our esteemed learned scholar, Marilyn from Australia, has promoted this interpretation on some threads, but I don't recall one single thread discussing just this, so here goes. 

First off, let me copy and paste the relevant scripture from Daniel 7 so we can refer back to it:

2Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

4“The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it.

5“And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’

6“After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

7“After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

8“While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

Spock's musings:

The reason why I believe Marilyn is right and the traditional interpretation that repeats Daniel 2 is wrong begins in verse 2:

3Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea."

It definitely seems to me that these four beasts came up out of the sea at the same time, not consecutively as Daniel 2 suggests.  Now, check this out. In Rev 13, the first beast out of the sea has 7 heads and 10 horns, right. Guess how many heads and horns come out of these 4 beasts in Daniel 7?  You guessed it- 7 heads and 10 horns. (Lion -1 head, no horns; bear 1 head, no horns; leopard, 4 heads, no horns; 4th beast with no animal description- 1 head, 10 horns) 

Oh, and Rev 13 also says the beast out of the sea resembles a lion, bear, and leopard. Guess what beasts are used to describe Daniel 7 beasts?  You guessed it- Lion, bear, and Leopard. 

Okay, moving on.  Now that you are open to seeing these beasts as being same time contemporary nations that arise out of the sea, who are they?  That is THE question!

Lion (plus Eagles' wings)- Great Britain is obvious choice, with wings like an eagle screams USA, but any other alternatives?

Bear- why Russia of course, but any other alternatives?

Leopard- I have no clue.  Do you know? 

The fourth beast- seems to be the 10 nations that will rise up and unite with the other 3 beasts to give the antichrist  (little horn) its allegiance.  Not sure who these may be.  They don't have an animal to describe them so that doesn't help.

okay friends, your turn.  What can you add to this discussion to get us all thinking? 

Thanks,

Spock

[Ezra]

Spock,

Sorry, but since you could not find a match for the leopard, it is clear that the traditional interpretation still holds -- Babylon, Medo-Persia, Graeco-Macedonia, and Rome.  The four empires which impacted on Israel, and have now passed away.  This has nothing to do with Revelation 13. 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

What a` breath of fresh air` you are. I nearly despaired of some discussions & there you bring up a great challenge. I`m all ears & with my pop corn. However just wee little correction. I do not believe this part -

`Now, check this out. In Rev 13, the first beast out of the sea has 7 heads and 10 horns, right. Guess how many heads and horns come out of these 4 beasts in Daniel 7?  You guessed it- 7 heads and 10 horns. (Lion -1 head, no horns; bear 1 head, no horns; leopard, 4 heads, no horns; 4th beast with no animal description- 1 head, 10 horns) `

The heads I believe are the leaders, (consecutive) of the Final Global Government. Anyway -

Looking forward to the discussion on your topic.

All the best, Marilyn.

 

BTW Look up the animal symbol that the first emperor of All Europe, Charlemange  used in his war against Islam & during the crusades, the Franks used the same animal symbol too. (on their shields & banners)

 

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Marilyn C

[Kan]

Contemporary interpretations of Daniel 7

 

"I think they are footy teams of the future"

"I believe they are real dinosaurs bought back to life by DNA experiments"

"I believe they are Fiji, New Guinea, Java and the Ghettos of Italy, because that's where the bottomless pit is"

"I have studied this for quite some time and believe, they are animals with reptilian aliens inside"

"I think they are dreams of monsters which haunt every child who has lived for more than two years in Asia"

"I'm a scholar and I conclude from commentaries that these passages are just meant to be poetry, an ancient form of story telling"

"I believe the beasts are contemporaneous with the kingdom of God, which is here now and can only be seen by spiritual eyes"

"I know the beasts are literal, I've seen them in a circus"

 

[Spock]

2 hours ago, Kan said:

Contemporary interpretations of Daniel 7

 

"I think they are footy teams of the future"

"I believe they are real dinosaurs bought back to life by DNA experiments"

"I believe they are Fiji, New Guinea, Java and the Ghettos of Italy, because that's where the bottomless pit is"

"I have studied this for quite some time and believe, they are animals with reptilian aliens inside"

"I think they are dreams of monsters which haunt every child who has lived for more than two years in Asia"

"I'm a scholar and I conclude from commentaries that these passages are just meant to be poetry, an ancient form of story telling"

"I believe the beasts are contemporaneous with the kingdom of God, which is here now and can only be seen by spiritual eyes"

"I know the beasts are literal, I've seen them in a circus"

 

?????????????SMH

[WilliamL]

18 hours ago, Spock said:

It definitely seems to me that these four beasts came up out of the sea at the same time, not consecutively as Daniel 2 suggests.  ...  Now that you are open to seeing these beasts as being same time contemporary nations that arise out of the sea, who are they?

Just because "it seems" to you that they came up at the same time, even though Daniel saw them rise consecutively -- else why the order: first, second, third, fourth, and the "after this" phrases? -- why should we accept them as being contemporary?

You'd have to provide better evidence to convince me, at least.

[Spock]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Just because "it seems" to you that they came up at the same time, even though Daniel saw them rise consecutively -- else why the order: first, second, third, fourth, and the "after this" phrases? -- why should we accept them as being contemporary?

You'd have to provide better evidence to convince me, at least.

I would expect nothing less from you, WilliamL.

i don't have time right now to add some more ammo to my argument, but admittedly, you were not impressed with my big gun!  Hmmm

[WilliamL]

On 3/27/2016 at 2:00 PM, Spock said:

 Now, check this out. In Rev 13, the first beast out of the sea has 7 heads and 10 horns, right. Guess how many heads and horns come out of these 4 beasts in Daniel 7?  You guessed it- 7 heads and 10 horns. (Lion -1 head, no horns; bear 1 head, no horns; leopard, 4 heads, no horns; 4th beast with no animal description- 1 head, 10 horns) 

Oh, and Rev 13 also says the beast out of the sea resembles a lion, bear, and leopard. Guess what beasts are used to describe Daniel 7 beasts?  You guessed it- Lion, bear, and Leopard. 

Just to let you know that I do find points of agreement with you --

Rev. 11:7 When they [the Two Witnesses] finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.  

Rev. 13:1 I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns...

Rev. 17:3 And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ...8  The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. 9 ...The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 And are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.           

Based on the boldface parts above, it is entirely reasonable to presume that Rev. 11, 13, and 17 all speak of the same Beast. The seven heads/mountains/kings are spiritual rulers of nations. The Beast itself underlay and originated all of them: they are his spirit-children, as it were. He is the sum of them all, and more.

So in Rev. 13 when it says the Beast is like a bear and a leopard and a lion, no problem. All of the spirits of those nations (Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece) both derived from him originally, and continue in a spiritual sense to be a part of him. All of them ruled over earthly totalitarian empires, and each of them will have contributed something of its earthly governing philosophy and tactics to the final End Times Beast-system.

[Spock]

9 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Just to let you know that I do find points of agreement with you --

Rev. 11:7 When they [the Two Witnesses] finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.  

Rev. 13:1 I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns...

Rev. 17:3 And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ...8  The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. 9 ...The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 And are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.           

 

I guess I'm not completely wayward, am I? Lol

ive been studying several things hard so that is why I haven't been here much lately. But my holiday will be here soon.

spock

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 3/27/2016 at 5:06 PM, Ezra said:

Spock,

Sorry, but since you could not find a match for the leopard, it is clear that the traditional interpretation still holds -- Babylon, Medo-Persia, Graeco-Macedonia, and Rome.  The four empires which impacted on Israel, and have now passed away.  This has nothing to do with Revelation 13. 

The "authority to rule" - I think, relates to the EU Constitution. 

Winged lion: England.  Lion without wings: the Colonies in America.  Standing man with human mind/heart: USA.  Bear raised up on one side: Russia, the lop-sided country: all it's focus, population, culture, religion is focused on its western side.  Leopard: the emerging, still undefined, not going in any one direction European Union.  Winged because of its power, pulled in many directions at once by England, Germany, France, and its center: Brussels.

Likewise, I think the "body" of the fourth terrible beast, seen in Revelation 13:2 reflects the constitution of this federated super-state whereby its ten "Kings" (who, in Rev 17 don't come with kingdoms, but become kings for 'one hour') are like the 12 Ministers of the EU.  So, three contemporary end-time nations, headed by a "neutral" ten-member council of Ministers, which is aligned with the anti-Christ in that they hate Christ Jesus, and ultimately is subordinated to the rising "little horn" of the anti-Christ.

So, in my line of thinking, the "head" of the fourth terrible beast of a nation is the beast of a man: the anti-Christ.  The beast of a nation, the fourth terrible beast, is the unification of the northern half of the Northern Hemisphere - which itself is a continuation of the Roman system of government which was overtly reincarnated three times in history, only to be finally realized at the end.  The beast of a man is one of the seven "heads" over the time spanning this kingdom of man, which itself, is also a spiritual entity described as a possessed dragon (not Satan) in Rev 16.  The anti-Christ, Man of Perdition, is the sixth in this line.  (The seventh will rise suddenly and for not long after the Millennium is over and the dragon Satan is released to stir up man against God once again.)

The reason the first three beasts of Daniel 7 survive the beheading of the fourth terrible beast in a parenthetical note in Dan 7:12 is that they come to the table with intact governing systems.  The "head" just unites them and makes them more powerful than a simple addition: together, they enjoy synergy in mass in other words.  The reason it is only for a little while is that there are two time periods past the destruction (capture, actually) of the anti-Christ at Armageddon (he and the false prophet are destroyed later after being judged) - the final battle of the one 'seven'.  These would be the 30 and 45 day periods revealed by the Man in Linen in Daniel chapter 12.  Once the Millennium begins, Man's rule ends.  The first three beasts role can be seen in Ezekiel 39:14-15.  This is modern NBC (nuclear, biological, chemical) battlefield cleanup as put forth in tactical military manuals in the US Armed Forces.  (I was a fighter pilot in the 80's; this is straight out of USAF TACM 3-1, which I had to study to pass my nuclear certification.)

Edited April 1, 2016 by Marcus O'Reillius
clarification of the "head" in the fourth paragraph