Contemporary Daniel 7 interpretation

[Diaste]

On 5/15/2016 at 6:38 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Diaste,

I think you have missed a few points, bro.

1. `The fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom...` (Dan. 7: 23)

You say the `beasts` are kings, & not kingdoms etc yet further on you say the 3rd beast `cannot represent any kingdom but Greece.` The `beasts` are kings representing kingdoms, as God`s word says.

2. `I watched till the beast was slain, & its body destroyed & given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season & a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

Now if the first 3 beasts are Babylon, Medo-Persia & Greece then how can the last beast tread them down & then those kingdoms still go on, as scripture tells us?

Marilyn.

perhaps i misspoke, its both unless the context dictates something else. scripture indicates a degree interchangeability.

dan 7:17 says the beasts are kings. that's the angels interpretation, not mine.

unless i miss something kings and kingdoms are inseparable.  kings create kingdoms in their own image.

well, persia, babylon, and greece all still survive without their dominion even after islam trampled them all. 

[douggg]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

perhaps i misspoke, its both unless the context dictates something else. scripture indicates a degree interchangeability.

dan 7:17 says the beasts are kings. that's the angels interpretation, not mine.

unless i miss something kings and kingdoms are inseparable.  kings create kingdoms in their own image.

well, persia, babylon, and greece all still survive without their dominion even after islam trampled them all. 

Diaste, in Christianity, is it part of our belief to worship John the Baptist as God ?

When people say the Mahdi is the beast (who will be worshiped as God), in Islam, it is like saying the same thing.

 

Edited May 19, 2016 by douggg

[BlindSeeker]

Daniel 7:8 - I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things… 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

This little horn seems to be almost too quietly mentioned being contrasted against the weight of “the four winds of the heaven [which] strove upon the great sea” with those “four great beasts [that] came up from the sea.” However, there are a few points I would like to present which I believe are worthy of your prayerful consideration, hoping those reading will place their current persuasions safely upon the altar of God so as to be open to examine these things afresh.

First, this little horn’s origin comes from “among them,” this to me speaks of a nation or empire that will rise up, not only out of the “ten horns,” but in all probability predominantly from one in particular. Therefore, it is prudent to stay mindful of how certain distinct attributes from each of those “four great beasts [that] came up from the sea” have also been assigned to the seven-headed beast that rises up out of the sea.

Revelation 13:1 -  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Clearly, everyone has seen the connection between the four beast in Daniel Chapter 7 and the passage above. However, I would like to submit the observation that the “little horn” has “eyes like the eyes of man.” To me, these “eyes of a man” speak primarily to the lust of the eyes, signifying how the little horn won’t be satisfied till all it sees everything under its control and influence. Therefore, he will be cunning, flattering, and given to endless lies, in a vain endeavor to achieve its ambitions, kind of like the POTUS right now. Thus this “little horn” has “a mouth speaking great things,” which also is seen to be associated with the seven-headed beast.

Revelation 13:5 - And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Anyone who has study history, in the bible and since the incarnation of our Savior, would have to acknowledge that God has been long-suffering and forbearing with the folly of humanity. He has permitted many seemingly great things to occur, which at the time many perceived and boasted were accomplished through the great wisdom and power possessed by men. However, in the end it always falls into ruin.

I personally think all this is permitted in order to prove to the whole of humanity that there is in fact a sovereign God, a Creator before whom all the nations are reckoned but mere dust in the scales. For we are assure by His word that all the souls of such powerful men will still stand before Him to give an accounting and to openly acknowledge that His alone is the Kingdom, the power, and glory forever and ever.

However, back to this “little horn,” scripture states how three other horns were “plucked up by the roots” by the little horn. I find this interesting in light of “contemporary” history…

Daniel 7:8 - I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things... 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Everyone knows that it is simple history that originally the colonization of the good ole’ United States of America was attempted by possibly three of those ten horns; England, Spain and France. However, all three of these have been “plucked up by the roots” so to say, having lost all sovereign claims to any American soil… that is unless they have bought some like the Chinese have been doing…

But concerning the “little horn,” it is evident that it was because of “the great words which the horn spoke” that “the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.” Did you catch that? The little horn is a beast too. But again, this too can be seen attributed to the seven-head beast who is destined to be destroyed with fire by the ten horns.

Revelation 17:16 - And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18:8 - Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Daniel saw both the rise and fall of this “little horn,” which was confirmed to be under the sovereign watch of the “Ancient of days.” No kingdom, even though they may appear to be running rampant in defiance to His great authority, has ever gone beyond the tolerance of the Lord’s great power and restraint.

Daniel 7:9 - I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.  10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

At this point, I would like to stress the importance of noting that the destruction of this “little horn,” which became a great beast and how was destroyed by fire, that its destruction does not bring the same timely end to the other horns or “beasts” as several here have duly noted. Nonetheless, it still seems  clear that though they lose some of their power, they are nonetheless permitted to continue on “for a season and time.” This reveals that there is a continuation of other national events in the world after the destruction of the “little horn.”

But now briefly I would like to direct your focus to where Gabriel appeared to Daniel in chapter 8. Note, that this is where Daniel once again returned to writing in Hebrew after he had written in the most of the previous chapters in Chaldee, which is Aramaic. That is because they contain the prophecies pertaining to Babylon. Also note that this is only a couple of years after Daniel was given the above vision of the four beasts in chapter 7; but now in chapter 8 he is given another vision in the “third year of the reign of King Belshazzar.”

In this vision Daniel foresees the coming of the Medo-Persia Empire (second beast) represented as a ram with two horns, one higher than the other. As he was pondering the ram and its horns, a great he-goat appears with a single great horn between its eyes. This horn in chapter 8 is Alexander the Great, previously represented by the third beast in chapter 7 (the leopard) to which “dominion was given.” As stated earlier, this dominion was not just over the other nations, but was specifically being given to him over “thy people and the holy city.” Alexander the Great and the Grecian armies being represented by the “he goat” are shown prophetically to move so quickly it is said it did not even touch the ground.

Daniel 8:5 - And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

In the vision the he-goat smites the ram and breaks his two horns; taking away its power to stand and then casts the ram down to the ground. After which the he-goat/Greece becomes a greater empire until the notable horn, i.e. Alexander the Great, is broken and dies leaving his empire to be divided among his four generals.

Daniel 8:8 - Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

There is not much said about the “four notable ones” that came up, for the emphasis of the verse straightway goes to another “little horn” that came forth from one of them. Now many people and commentators believe that this little horn is the same little horn in Daniel 7:8, but I disagree. The first little horn in 7:8 comes from the remnants of the fourth beast’s ten horns, where this second little horn comes from one of the four horns of the third beast. Also, this second little horn arise in the time frame of “the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full,” which simply means the measure of God’s patience with the sins of the transgressors has come to an end; judgment is now imminent. I had been touching on this very topic tonight in another thread when I decided to look at this one…

To put it simply here, I am strongly incline to believe this little horn in chapter 8 was Antiochus Epiphanes who polluted the Temple by sacrificing a pig on the altar of God, blaspheming His name and was later defeated by the Maccabees. Antiochus died suddenly of worms and ulcers supposedly in 164 B.C., in harmony with Daniel 8:25 which says “but he shall be broken without hand.” You can see the excerpt from Josephus pertaining to this I posted on another thread here ….

Sorry for the rabbit trail, back to the first  “little horn” in chapter 7, as well as a quick mention of how Daniel was writing in Aramaic from 2:4 thru 7:28. I strongly believe there is profound prophetic significance in his doing so, since those parts were primarily dealing with Babylon and its fall. This seems to signify to me that after the seven-headed beast (or the eighth that goes into perdition by fire) and Mystery Babylon the Great falls, that there will continue a brief period of time for other prophecies to come to pass pertaining to Israel before the Lord returns.

Personally, since I do believe America is “the eighth,” that this is all further indication of the necessity for God’s people in the not so good ole’ USA to humble themselves with fastings to prayerfully consider God’s command in Revelation 18:4 as literal to “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”  (That’s why I now live in Costa Rica…)

Over the years it has become my conviction that before we see the conclusion of the seventieth week of Daniel, we will witness the fall of the eighth and Babylon the Great, i.e. America. For the seven-headed beast, just like the little horn, will be completely destroyed with fire before the final prophecies of Daniel’s visions regarding Israel are fulfilled just prior to the Lord’s return.

Again, the vision of the “little horn” in chapter 7 that plucks up three other horns by their roots agrees historically with early Americans having fought and gained their independence from England, Spain and France.

Furthermore, in chapter 8 Gabriel is sent to Daniel after Babylon falls to declare both the endings and beginnings of other events on God’s predetermined timeline. For Gabriel having been commissioned to explain to Daniel the vision of the ram and the he-goat, Gabriel also gives Daniel the prophecy of the seventy weeks concerning the time "unto the Messiah the Prince," (Daniel 8:16; 9:21). Later Gabriel appears in the New Testament to Zacharias proclaiming the birth of John the Baptist, and then later to Mary, announcing the birth of Jesus (Luke 1:19, 26).

So personally, I feel these are prophetic indications that reinforces the certainty that before the conclusion of the seventieth week of Daniel concerning "thy people and upon thy holy city," it will be preceded by the fall of the eight beast, represented by the seven-headed beast, and Babylon the Great. For I believe it is crucial to understand the seventy weeks are a prophetic period of time that pertains to Daniel’s people and the holy city of Jerusalem, and other nations will fall before the conclusion thereof.

Forgive my length please….

[BlindSeeker]

On 15/5/2016 at 1:27 AM, Kan said:

If the fourth kingdom is Rome, then how does Rome crush Persia, Babylon and Greece in the last days, when there is nothing left of Rome except the little horn?

Rome crushed Israel and cause it to cease as a functioning national government with geographical boundaries. Israel which "was, was not, yet is"

[BlindSeeker]

On 16/5/2016 at 0:59 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi douggg,

Good question there -How is the Assyrian to fall by the sword (not of man) - equate to the person who becomes the anti-Christ being cast alive into the lake of fire?

So let`s look at God`s word.

`For thus the Lord has spoken to me: "As a lion roars, & a young lion over his prey ....so the Lord of hosts will come down to fight for Mount Zion & for its hill. Like flying birds about, so will the Lord of hosts defend Jerusalem. Defending, he will also deliver it; passing over, he will preserve it." ......."Then the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of man...` (Isa. 31: 4 - 8)

So we see that this event is when the Lord comes to Mount Zion. We are told more detail in Zechariah & Revelation.

`And I saw heaven opened, & behold, a white horse. And he who sat on him was called Faithful & True, & in righteousness He judges & makes war......Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. (Rev. 19: 11 & 15)

`And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, & their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.` (Zech. 14: 12) 

`Then the beast was captured, & with him the false prophet....These two were cast alive into the lake burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.` (Rev. 19: 20 & 21)

These scripture tell me that the anti-Christ `shall fall by a sword not of man,` -  by the sword proceeding out of the Lord`s mouth. This we know is the word of God & is more powerful than any atomic force. Their flesh will dissolve, but before they die they will be cast alive into the burning fire. They go straight to the Lake of fire while others will just die & later stand before God`s judgment.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Interesting correlation indeed Marilyn, still I felt it beneficial to submit another perspective held by many, but perhaps adequately stated by Adam Clarke -

Isaiah 31:8 - Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.

 

Adam Clarke's Commentary:
Verse 8.  Then shall the Assyrian fall, &c.] Because he was to be discomfited by the angel of the Lord, destroying in his camp, in one night, upwards of one hundred and eighty thousand men; and Sennacherib himself fell by the hands of the princes, his own sons. Not mighty men, for they were not soldiers; not mean men, for they were princes.

 

[Marilyn C]

6 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said:

Interesting correlation indeed Marilyn, still I felt it beneficial to submit another perspective held by many, but perhaps adequately stated by Adam Clarke -

 

 

Isaiah 31:8 - Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.

 

 

 

 

Adam Clarke's Commentary:
Verse 8.  Then shall the Assyrian fall, &c.] Because he was to be discomfited by the angel of the Lord, destroying in his camp, in one night, upwards of one hundred and eighty thousand men; and Sennacherib himself fell by the hands of the princes, his own sons. Not mighty men, for they were not soldiers; not mean men, for they were princes.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi BlindSeeker,

Yes, there is a `near & far` aspect to this prophecy.

`Then the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of a man, & a sword not of mankind shall devour him.` (Isa. 31: 8)

Marilyn.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Marilyn C

[BlindSeeker]

On 16/5/2016 at 8:00 AM, douggg said:

So God has the person killed.    And in Isaiah 14, the person finds himself in hell, mocked, until God in disdain for him brings him back to life...

Does that actually make sense to you?

Seriously?

Does it make any sense to anyone else?

What about it is appointed unto men to die once... and then judgment?

[BlindSeeker]

2 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi BlindSeeker,

Yes, there is a `near & far` aspect to this prophecy.

Marilyn.

Off topic side note:

I notice that your quote of mine has been altered with addition returns (spacing between para). I have notice a few things happening when pasting, even altering the end of a paragraph to the beginning and such.

Anyone else been witnessing these type of things??

[Kan]

2 hours ago, BlindSeeker said:

Rome crushed Israel and cause it to cease as a functioning national government with geographical boundaries. Israel which "was, was not, yet is"

No, Israel was and is, it never was not.

Besides this verse is talking about the red beast, which I am pretty certain is not Israel.

[BlindSeeker]

7 hours ago, Kan said:

No, Israel was and is, it never was not.

Besides this verse is talking about the red beast, which I am pretty certain is not Israel.

Then you are in blattant denial of history. Can you produce a map of Israel created after 70 AD and before its rebirth in 1948? Let's see one...

How about some historical documents recording national treaties or involvements on the nation of Israel with the surrounding nations? Surely there mjust be some...

How about some documents of other nations that mention the "Nation of Israel" and not "the Jews" whereby political engagement is being addressed? With all the diplomacy in the world there has be volumes somewhere if what you are saying is true, so where are they?

Just because God has kept His convenant to "the fathers" and has opreserved a remnant that was raised up again in these last days doesn't mean Israel as a nation wasn't destroyed in 70 AD.

The truth that Israel "was, was not, and yet is," is a factual and therefore the prophetic reference to the beast as being "was, was not, and yet is," is because the seven heads of the beast are both undiscernable and inseparatable from the literal Nation of Israel.