the scripture of Genesis Water above, and water below the heavens ?

[Retrobyter]

50 minutes ago, inchrist said:

The hebrew alpha-bet is in pictographs, and the hebrew pictograph for bet - is a house or tent or architect. Im not surpised you dont know this.

In otherwords its a letter and word that is used to represent creation, hence why we find this to be the very first letter and pictograph in the bible, becuase its going to describe the architecture of creation.

"Bet" in its prefixiv means "in" suggesting God to also abide in the house or in his creation.

When we look at the first letter of the bible being "Bet" its an plosive sound indicating force and power with the silent invisable force of aleph (hence why you dont see the first word of the bible to be aleph)

The reason for this if you notice that the hebrew word for Father is "AV" who created the universe and is spelled with two Hebrew letters, (aleph) and the (beyt), God our Father was an invisible silent force before He spoke out the very first letter and word for creation which so happens to be Gods light. Let there be light.

Further if we examine the word Bereshith , the word is derived from shoresh (rosh), which means head or chief.

In the beginning God created the heavens and earth - what we have is God the head of his house, head of his creation, head of his tent. The head of the universe. Who not only abided outside of His house (outside of creation because there was nothing we know of that was created before but also now in His house (In His creation).

God created a domain where humans and angels may dwell, this domain or house or tent or creation is the entire universe as we are not subject ONLY to the planet earth to dwell in.

Hence in the beginning God created the Heavens and earth as its a creation account of the entire universe.

 

 

No you not understanding the issue clearly, in the creation of the greater and lesser lights Gen 1:16, the writer of Genesis was aware that two prominent gods worshiped in the ancient Near East were the sun and moon.

In Egypt the sun was associated with several important gods, as you should be well aware Amun-Ra, Ra, and Aton.

Canaanite worshipers knew the sun as Shemesh. 

The author of Gen 1:14-19 makes the case that the Creator God is on a different plane than the sun and the moon. They are only the greater and lesser lights. No one should acknowledge them as deities or confuse them with God. They are simply creations not creators.

This is why you see the contrasts be emphasised between Gods light and the greater light and lesser light in the creation account and why the creation of these lights is also unusally long Gen 1:14- 19 in the context of the creation account.

You fail to take the context of the cultural background....using the words greater and lesser light is an attempt to De-emphasis the deity concept of the sun, moon and stars....Moses was still refering to the sun, moon and stars and not just their rays.

For example the sun rises from the east....as you know the sun doesnt rise, the earth rotates round it.

The contrasts of the word light being used throughout the creation account from let there be light all the way to the greater and lesser light attests to the cultural issues from Israels neighbor's.

Your water canopy theory is not scriptual period and shows a complete lack of what God is trying to show and tell us in Gen 1, there is no other God but him, he is the light.

Shabbat shalom, inChrist.

No! That's not right! Don't go all kabbalistic on me! Our "B" is also patterned after the "pictograph" of "house." Are you going to sit there and tell me that every word we have that contains a "B" has some relationship to "house?!" That is just superstitious NONSENSE! Don't go digging yourself into a hole that you can't get out of! That's what the Jewish kabbalists did! They dug themselves a mystical hodge-podge that "explained" away several of the Scriptures that prophesied the coming of the Messiah! It's a DEAD END!

And, it's a "back-door" type of argument for a "universal" meaning to the Creation account! It's full of holes, an argument that holds NO WATER at all! Indeed, all of your waters above the sky go evaporating off into distant galaxies! One should absolutely NOT assume from the Creation account that day 4 is any different than days 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, or 7! Are you meshuggah?! "FOR IN SIX DAYS, KIY SHEESHET YAAMIYM!!!" Do you count, "1, 2, 3, 4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-4-(millions of times), 5, 6?" I should hope not!

Regarding the other gods of surrounding countries, "which came first the chicken or the egg?" Whose God created the earth and the skies? Remember Romans 1:

Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV

These peoples once KNEW who the true God was, or at least their ancestors did! The Genesis account, then, is NOT a rebuttal against false concepts of a "god"; He simply told Mosheh the truth and stated it in a way that was irrefutable. He was NOT in a defensive posture against the "gods" of the neighbors. HE doesn't have to be! He speaks the TRUTH and says it matter-of-factly.

Also, it seems that it's time to go back to grade school. The earth doesn't "rotate around the sun." It REVOLVES around the sun, making a year. It ROTATES TO the sun, making a day.

You said, "This is why you see the contrasts be emphasised between God's light and the greater light and lesser light in the creation account and why the creation of these lights is also unusally long Gen 1:14- 19 in the context of the creation account.... The contrasts of the word light being used throughout the creation account from let there be light all the way to the greater and lesser light attests to the cultural issues from Israels neighbor's."

Sorry, but you're failing to see that there are TWO DIFFERENT WORDS FOR "LIGHT" in Genesis 1!

Breeshiyt 1:3-5, 14-19
3 Vayo’mer Elohiym, “Yhiy owr,” vayhiy owr:
4 Vayar’ Elohiym et haa’owr kiy TowV vayaVdeel Elohiym beeyn haa’owr uwVeeyn hachoshekh:
5 Vayiqraa’ Elohiym laa’owr “Yowm” vlachoshekh qaaraa’ “Laaylaah” vayhiy `ereV vayhiy boqer yowm echaad:

...

14 Vayo’mer Elohiym, “Yhiy m’orot birqiya` hashaamayim lhaVdiyl beeyn hayowm uwVeeyn halaaylaah vhaayuw l’otot uwlmow`adiym uwlyaamiym vshaaniym:
15 Vhaayuw lim’owrot birqiya` hashaamayim lhaa’iyr `al haa’aarets,” vayhiy keen:
16 Vaya`as Elohiym et shneey ham’orot hagdoliym et hamaa'owr hagaadol lmemshelet hayowm v’et hamaa'owr haqaaTon lmemshelet halaylaah v’eet hakowkaaViym:
17 Vayiteen otaam Elohiym birqiya` hashaamaayim lhaa’iyr `al haa’aarets:
18 Vlimshol bayowm uwValaylaah uwlhaVdiyl beeyn haa’owr uwVeeyn hachoshekh vayar’ Elohiym kiy TowV:
19 Vayhiy `ereV vayhiy boqer yowm rViy`iy:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

If you say, that the first was "God's light," owr or ha'owr, without or with the definite article, then you should notice that it was this "light" that was named "Day," the same day that is counted seven times in the Creation week as "the evening and the morning" ("vayhiy ereV vayhiy boqer"). However, the "two great lights" ("shneey ham'orot hagdoliym") are FOCAL POINTS for this light! "Hamaa'owr" is a combination of the definite article, "ha-," the prefix for "from," "maa-," and the word in verse 3, "'owr." As "focal points," Strong's notes that the word means "a luminous body or a luminary."

It's basically the same as the difference between Yeshua` and His Father:

Revelation 21:23
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
KJV

In Greek, the words are "efootisen," from "foos," that was translated "did lighten." And, the "light" is the Greek word "luchnos." Strong's list these words as...

NT:5457 foos (foce); from an obsolete faoo (to shine or make manifest, especially by rays; compare NT:5316, NT:5346); luminousness (in the widest application, nat. or artificial, abstract or concrete, literal or figurative):
KJV - fire, light.

NT:3088 luchnos (lookh'-nos); from the base of NT:3022; a portable lamp or other illuminator (literally or figuratively):
KJV - candle, light.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

God's glory ("doxa") is generally bright light, but Yeshua` is the lamp, the focal point of that light!

[Reinitin]

14 hours ago, Kan said:

A review of the term "waters" in the Bible, in the plural rather than singular, shows that some of the references are not particularly related to H2O, if not related at all. 

There are waters which have been stretched out, others gathered, some above the heavens and stars, and others on which the earth has been founded.

Some cause earthquakes, some cause the clouds to drop rain and produce lightning, and so forth. 

On more than one occasion, God talks about them directly to Job.

God shows that "the waters" are associated with all of the creation that we are capable of seeing, from animal behavior to the weather, and even the stars. But He also states that they cannot be seen or perceived. Job 38:30 "The waters are hid as a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen" In one place God has made a promise based on the fact that no one can actually discover them by physical means.

In Job God makes it plain that the "waters" on their own are deadly to mankind, hence the impossibility of discovering them. Job 38: 17,18.

In the middle of a dozen or more examples in nature, God gives the answers of what He is talking about to Job, and how He uses these created elements to maintain nature. Including the habits of animals, their mating seasons, the way they feed and migrate around the earth etc.

Job's friends were also generally aware of a few things Job was told. No doubt they would have been known and talked about at the time by wise men such as Job.

They also discussed things like "the light" and "the bright cloud" etc.

These elements are no mystery to the Bible student, because they are introduced in the very beginning of creation before any material was seen or perceived by any creature.

Without a basic knowledge of what these elements are, many of the texts concerning them will be inconsistent and mysterious. 

To attempt to explain them with common science, is futile, as can be deducted by the theories creation scientists have put forward. 

For example, the canopy of water (H20) around the earth in the sky is one of them. And water above the stars. 

Its interesting about 2 minutes 18 seconds star water present in the development of a new sun and solar system.

 

[Kan]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Kan.

Okay, it's your turn: The English term "the waters" is plural, because the Hebrew term "hamaayim," spelled "hei-(patach)-mem-(qamets)-yod-(chireq)-mem," is dual, and English doesn't have a "dual" number. We only have "singular" and "plural." Hebrew has "singular," "dual," and "plural." The "dual" number is usually reserved for things that come in pairs, such as "shoes" or body parts such as "eyes."

The first mention of "hamaayim" is in Genesis 1:2, over which the Ruwach, or the Wind, of God "moved" or "brooded" (Hebrew: mrachefet) "The waters" are "the waters," and if you think the context of a particular text says otherwise, then I would suggest you re-read the passage until you understand the context, OR even better, LEARN HEBREW! And, don't learn just the vocabulary (which is the error of most Bible-believing, English-speaking theologians) but the actual grammar, as well! One doesn't understand what the Hebrew words meant in the passage because he doesn't know the language!

Let's just look at the context of Job 38, and see how it was intended to be understood: (I'm going to use the NIV here for clarity in the English language.)

Job 38:16-30
16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep? 

Have you visited the sources of the sea? Of course not.
Have you walked in the trenches of the ocean? Of course not.

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death? 
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this. 

The answer is again, "Of course not!" However, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with water!

19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside? 
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings? 
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years! 

What road does one take to the residence of "light?" Where does "darkness" live? Can you take them to their homes? Do you know the roads to their houses? And, of course, the answers are "I DON'T KNOW" and "NO."

22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail, 
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle? 

Yeah, right! "Storehouses." They couldn't have entered them because they don't exist! Have you noticed that those "storehouses" - the dark clouds - diminish and disappear, giving way to less-threatening, white clouds, if not a bright, sunny day? He's telling the listeners that there AREN'T ANY! He makes snow and hail as He needs them!

24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth? 

Again, HOW is the lightning dispersed? Where does it go after it strikes? Is there a road to that place? Of course not! The electrons are dispersed to the various molecules and atoms that surround the strike zone, diminishing the charge difference and balancing the charges!

Where do the east winds come from? IS there such a place? Of course not! Shlomoh (Solomon), the wisest man in his day, said,

Ecclesiastes 1:6
6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
KJV

And, we can attest to this wisdom in the weather information that we can glean today from satellites and weather history that we've recorded. We call such "circuits" "low pressure" and "high pressure" systems, today.

25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm, 
26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it, 
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass? 

A "channel" in Israel is called a "wadi." Who cuts the wadiym? Who makes a path for the thunderstorm? Answer: NO ONE does!

28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew? 

The Hebrew word for "father" is "aV." (The "V" is a "vet," an undotted "bet.") It is also translated as "source." For instance, the name "Avigayil" or ("Abigail") means "my source (father) of joy." Again, the answer is "NO!" Who fathers the drops of dew on the blades of grass each morning? NO ONE does!

29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens 
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?"
NIV

From what "womb" or "uterus" does the ice come from? Who gives birth to the frost from the skies when the waters become hard as stone (ice), when the SURFACE of the deep is frozen (i.e., when a lake freezes over)? The answer again is: NO ONE does!

All of this is talking about WEATHER WISDOM! Don't make this harder than it is! You've blown these Scripture verses WAY out of proportion!

Wherever you wrote "NO ONE does," you are speaking about yourself, because God gives the answers in His questions. 

The first answer to the questions God proposes is "I am the Lord God who does these things." The second answers are how He does it, and third answer is why.

God causes the rain, the dew, and provides for the creatures etc

He does it through the power of His Word, which governs the light and the waters, which govern nature.

Why? because He is wise, strong, reliable and caring.

 

Example "Hath the rain a father?" The question is not whether rain has a daddy, but "What is the primary cause of rain?"

In the flood "the windows of heaven were opened" God caused it to rain. Does that mean there are windows in the sky? Of course not.

How does God cause it to rain? Job 37 gives a few clues. Through the voice of God, the power of the Word of God, acting on the what? The waters, not H20, but the waters we read of in Genesis, which are still everywhere. It says "by watering He wearies the thick cloud," does that mean God pours water through a cloud with a watering can to make it rain? No. All you need to catch up on is what the waters are and what they do, then you would know that they cause matter to change its status of energy from one form to another, which in the case of the atmosphere, does not allow the air to retain heat and moisture as much. The opposite force - "the light" which is talked about extensively in Job, does the opposite, it causes the atmosphere to soak up heat and retain energy etc. 

 

[Kan]

8 hours ago, JohnD said:

Back to the OP topic.

The Earth was created originally with a vapor canopy consisting of water.

To this day Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, and Uranus all have vapor canopies of varying consistencies. 

The water from the great flood came in part from this canopy (the action of which may have boiled the surface of the Earth as well as flooded it) and great fissures opened as the Earth's crust split expelling water from subterranean vaults (continental plates may or may not have slid on this†) 

† two theories prevail about "Pangia" the one world continent

• the continents split and slide as the water left the vaults
• the earth grew in size splitting apart at the continental faullines

The collapsing ocean bottoms and elevation of tectonic plates (resulting in post flood mountain ranges etc) put sea level (global flood average) at present. Also the ice caps have locked away some of that enormous amount of water transference.

 

It's possible, of course, I was very young at the time, but how would you see the stars and planets through a vapor like on Venus? 

[Kan]

Reinitin, I am aware of the presence of water and ice in the universe. But I question whether the Spirit of God needs to move upon the face of ordinary water.

I think that the waters prior to the appearance of land in the creation, were not ordinary water, otherwise it cannot be said that the earth is established on them, and that they are the foundation of the earth.

[Retrobyter]

22 minutes ago, Kan said:

Reinitin, I am aware of the presence of water and ice in the universe. But I question whether the Spirit of God needs to move upon the face of ordinary water.

I think that the waters prior to the appearance of land in the creation, were not ordinary water, otherwise it cannot be said that the earth is established on them, and that they are the foundation of the earth.

Shalom, Kan.

You're delusional. The Scriptures do NOT say that the earth is established on the waters nor does it say that they are the foundation of the earth! Get a grip!

[Kan]

54 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Kan.

You're delusional. The Scriptures do NOT say that the earth is established on the waters nor does it say that they are the foundation of the earth! Get a grip!

A few of many texts to think about.

Psalms 136:6, Psalms 29:3,4, Prov 30:4, Job 38:6-14, Genesis 1:i,2, 49:25

[SINNERSAVED]

So here is my question, for those that cannot keep up with the long seminars from those big long stories,

 I just want to know, do you believe in a flat earth , and if there be a dome like cover over it, or a round world  with a dome type over it, ?

is there water above us , that is the blue sky ? or can we go from earth all the way to heaven with no ceiling,

 these are the basic type questions I am trying to find out, ,. so thank you  and if any one knows , that be great

 blessings to you all

[Kan]

Does this answer some questions?

[other one]

9 minutes ago, SINNERSAVED said:

So here is my question, for those that cannot keep up with the long seminars from those big long stories,

 I just want to know, do you believe in a flat earth , and if there be a dome like cover over it, or a round world  with a dome type over it, ?

is there water above us , that is the blue sky ? or can we go from earth all the way to heaven with no ceiling,

 these are the basic type questions I am trying to find out, ,. so thank you  and if any one knows , that be great

 blessings to you all

no