What is the doctrine of the Trinity?

[missmuffet]

Just now, kwikphilly said:

As Angels4u has asked,,,,,,,,,,,,& it is a VERY SIMPLE question,,,,

No disrespect to anyone,especially BoPeep but we do not need gotquestions.org or anything more than Gods Word to tell us that the GodHead Triune is 3 distinct persons of God,in/as ONE/////

Simple question,,,,,simple answer

 

Kwik.I am sorry that you do not think "Got Questions" is not needed but I find since there is so much false doctrine on Worthy lately it is nice to see the "TRUTH".

[kwikphilly]

I'm not saying there is anything with "gotquestions.org" bopeep,please ,,,,that is why I specifically addressed you because I know you will re-act ,knowing you are very committed to that source,,,,,,,,,,but I was not "knocking it" okay?I SIMPLY stated "WE" need nothing MORE,,,,,

There is ONE Scripture that these nonbelievers of our very own "Statement of Faith" do not like to answer,,,,,

Quote

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.                                       John 1:1

They will & do continually refute very Scripture reference mentioned by your website ,,,,,,,yet,what about this one?Do any of us NEED MORE than this? Of course not,we believe EVERY Inerrant God Inspired Word

This is typical of JW's,,,,,their "bible" omits "And the WORD was God"

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, kwikphilly said:

This is typical of JW's,,,,,their "bible" omits "And the WORD was God"

As I recall, the New World Translation does not omit that verse, it modifies it to:

"and the word was a god"

denoting that the word is some lessor class of god, and not THE God.

I have my props near the door for their visits. The sometimes like to tell me: "your bible has some errors in translation, but the Greek says . . ."

When they go there, I grab my Greek only New Testament, and open to a random page and have them read it and tell me what it means. After establishing that they do not know anything about Koine Greek, and getting them to admit that they are therefore not adequately qualified to discuss Greek, we can then look at the Bible in a language we understand.

So, going back to John one, and using their Bible, in English, and have a discussion along these lines:

I ask them if things are either created or creator, one or the other, is there any other class? They might  
waffle a bit here, smelling a trap, but I point out that the question is legitimate. If we are talking about the Creator, 
we need know if Jesus, is a created being, or the Creator Himself. That should make it easier for them to express their belief.

You see, they believe that the Word (Jesus) was a created being, AKA Michael the archangel. And that the Word was the beginning of the creation of God, the first thing created, and all other things were created through Him. Once you get that out of them, affirm then, that they are saying that the Word then was created by the creator, they typically will do that, since that is what they believe.

Then we go to the text.

1 In (the) beginning the Word was, and the word was with God, and the Word was a god. 
2 This one was in (the) beginning with God.
3 all things things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Now, we just found out, that they believe that the Word (who later dwelt among us in the person of Jesus) was not the 
original creator, but was in fact, a creation himself. However, their Bible tells us that ALL things came into existence through Jesus. On that point, they will typically say:

Well, what it means is, all OTHER things besides Jesus, Jesus brought into existence. We can point out that verse 3 says "all things", not all OTHER things, and to make it crystal clear, the second part of the verse says apart from him, NOT EVEN ONE THING. came into existence. So, unless Jesus created Himself, according to their bible, Jesus is the creator of everything, and is therefore, God. He is not a creation, He is the Creator. 

They often go down the path that the Trinity is totally illogical, three cannot equal one, etc. I take that opportunity to explain the Biblical doctrine of the Trinity as some posts in this thread already have, and how that differs from what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society tells them that we Christians believe, mainly pointing out that the three are not identical, but individuals, but that the individuals are of the same nature, being God in nature.

Then I get out my next prop, and I put something into each of there hands, in such a way, that they cannot see what each other has. In one hand, I put a whole peanut, shell and all.In the other hand, I put a peanut, with no shell. Then I ask each one of them, to tell me in one word, what they have in their hand. Of course, each one tells me he has a peanut. I have them open their hands so the other can see, and point out that they each said they have a peanut, and that in each case, a DNA test would identify the nature of what they have as being "peanut".

[angels4u]

Just now, angels4u said:

Amen Mega ,why do people make it so confusing?

 

[missmuffet]

Or.....

The skin,the meat and the seeds. One apple but three different parts.

 

[kwikphilly]

I stand corrected,,,,,I guess that is not an omission? In any case ,YES that is correct        

Quote

As I recall, the New World Translation does not omit that verse, it modifies it to:

"and the word was a god"

denoting that the word is some lessor class of god, and not THE God.

Thanks Mega,,,,,have a dozen of one ,,,,,6 to the other!!! LOL                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Omegaman 3.0]

24 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Amen Mega ,why do people make it so confusing?

I think probably there are two things.

One, we live in a physical world, and we are limited in our thinking, by our experiences in that world. We do not experience true physical trinities, so we try to come up with analogies, the egg has a shell, a white, and a yolk, water exists as solid (ice), liquid, and gas (steam of vapor). The analogies always fall short a little, because we are using physical things to compare with spiritual, and it does not translate well, spiritual things are different.

The Bible often gives us ways to think about things, using analogies and parables etc, because we only have the physical world to base things on. We are slow to understand and embrace spiritual realities. We cannot see them, we can only try to understand them. What we do not understand though, we do not NEED to understand, we need to just accept them. Faith is that which bridges the gap between what we know, and what we do not. Faith, is what God gives the saved, that brings us the the second difficulty.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Cor 2:14

The natural man, the one with only his original, not a regenerated nature, does not accept, and cannot understand these things. Not to say that we, who have the Spirit, understand everything.

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 1 Cor 13:10

on the other hand:

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Heb 11:1

So we, who have the Spirit, can accept things by faith, whether or not we understand them, we just know things to be true, because we believe God.

 

 

[kwikphilly]

By the WAY,,,,,I really like your prop s,,,the "peanut " example is fantastic!!! We've awll heard the egg,the apple etc,,,etc,,, but they are not quite right(imo)  I'm nuts about the peanut experiment!!!!                       Good stuff Mega!

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

By the WAY,,,,,I really like your prop s,,,the "peanut " example is fantastic!!! We've awll heard the egg,the apple etc,,,etc,,, but they are not quite right(imo)  I'm nuts about the peanut experiment!!!!                       Good stuff Mega!

Yeah, I like the peanut analogy better than other physical ones, simply because it uses the same terminology for the part and the whole. In the last image, the three peanuts are the one peanut, which sort of interrupts the thinking that it is illogical that 3 can equal 1! This sort of language though, is not unfamiliar in English.

For example, "the three persons are the one God", sounds wrong to some people, but these same people would not take issue with a linguistically similar phrase "the ten people are the one committee"!

I should give credit, where credit is due. I created the graphic, but the concept I got from Pastor Kurt Dahlin, currently of Breakwater Church in Redondo Beach, CA. He is a smart and gifted teacher, but not perfect, after all, he was, last I knew, a pre-tribulation raptureist, LOL,

Sorry, I could not resist!

[kwikphilly]

Quote

I should give credit, where credit is due. I created the graphic, but the concept I got from Pastor Kurt Dahlin, currently of Breakwater Church in Redondo Beach, CA. He is a smart and gifted teacher, but not perfect, after all, he was, last I knew, a pre-tribulation raptureist, LOL,

Sorry, I could not resist!

Some things are just IRRResistable!!!!                              Love ya Brother,Kwik