more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[Ezra]

11 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Fact is, they do not respond that way, because they do not have the faith to believe, they cannot understand, and there very nature, is to reject God. Those who escape this enigma, are those who God chose to rescue.

That's not the point.  Whether sinners respond to the Gospel in faith or not, the invitation is to ALL, and the commandment to repent is to ALL, because ALL are guilty, and ALL can be saved.  Indeed, it is God's desire that ALL should be saved: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4).

 

We all know that all will not be saved, but we should be very clear that if all would repent and believe the Gospel, ALL WOULD BE SAVED.  Calvinism denies this fundamental truth.

[Omegaman 3.0]

10 minutes ago, Ezra said:

That's not the point.  Whether sinners respond to the Gospel in faith or not, the invitation is to ALL, and the commandment to repent is to ALL, because ALL are guilty, and ALL can be saved.  Indeed, it is God's desire that ALL should be saved: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3,4).

 

We all know that all will not be saved, but we should be very clear that if all would repent and believe the Gospel, ALL WOULD BE SAVED.  Calvinism denies this fundamental truth.

IF all would repent, they would be saved, sure enough!

All will not repent, therefore, not all are saved, they remain lost. The invitation is to all, no disagreement what-so-ever. You are not arguing against Calvinism there. Perhaps, you are arguing against your interpretation of Calvinism. Sort of a straw man, don't you think?

By the way, thank you for your earlier lengthy post.

[Omegaman 3.0]

By the way, I cannot help but notice, that I had no takers when I asked those who believe in free will:

Have you ever sinned?

If so, did you choose to do that?

Do you think you can live out the rest of your life, never sinning again?

If not, why not, since you have free will?

[Omegaman 3.0]

Must be about time for part two of my attempt at expressing some thoughts on free will.

 

Part 2

Next, I think I would like to get more specific about free will with respect to what we are talking about in the discussion about Arminianism and Calvinism. Within that discussion we are not talking about the broadest sense of free will. Here we are limited to discussing free will as it relates to matters of salvation. Are we free to choose to follow God, to believe in his son Jesus, and and therefore inherit salvation as a result of our choice? Did God choose us and not really offer us the option?

In part one we spoke about to theoretical extremes of choice or of free will. We talked about totally unfettered choice which I believe I associated with the metaphor of white, and contrasted that with a situation where we did not even have free thought and all of our actions were the equivalent of us being puppets with someone or something else pulling the strings. I associated that extreme with black. I then presumed that those who are reading this probably would agree with me that our situation was somewhere in between those two extremes and was therefore some shade of gray.

Next I would like to illustrate a way in which free will can exist and yet at the same time be limited. For this I am not initially going to plead my case from Bible verses because I think that the case can be made from things that we know and observe and then we can also look at how the Bible does describe the situation of fallen man.

Look at and consider the drawing below:

 

The cow and the lion, are physically able to eat meat and straw, respectively, but it is not in their nature. Therefore they will not make that choice. They are free choose that way, in theory, but their natures prevent them from choosing that way, and therefore, they just will not make that choice. In order for that to happen, their very natures would have to be changed. Everything behaves, according to it's nature. Even God is subject to this rule.

 

Example: God cannot lie . . . Ti 1:2, Ps 89:35, Nu 23:19

 

The only way that God can lie, is if His nature changes.

God, does not change, Ps 55:19,  Ja 1:17,  Nu 23:19

 

So, everything is restricted to acting within it's nature, that itself, is just in the nature of things..

 

Just as it is within the nature of a cow, not to eat a steak, and the lion not to eat straw, it is not in the nature of fallen man, to choose the things of God. The only way that happens, is if that nature of the man changes. God is able to change man, by giving Him a new nature, and that is what He does, at the new birth.

I do not think that the illustration above is too difficult to understand and most people would probably agree with its point. Sometimes we can have choices. For example a man could walk up to one of us and point a gun at us and tell us:

"Give me your wallet or die!"

There we have two choices in front of us. One aspect of our nature is an instinct for self survival. That instinct kicks in and we choose to hand over our wallet rather than choosing to die. At the same time, if someone were to ask us: "why did you give that man your wallet?", We might answer: "I had no choice!"

Now one might think that mankind is in the same sort of position. I hate to make the comparison but we could make one wherein we see God in the position of saying:

"Either follow my son or burn in hell!"

The situation is somewhat similar because one choice is so much better than the other, and because our instinct for survival tells us to avoid hell and instead to choose to follow God's son. So why don't we?

In the case of the armed robber, the situation is very real and very immediate to us. In the situation with God, we do not choose God because we don't believe God, we don't have the faith necessary to have our instinct for survival kick in!

It is also possible that we come up with a third choice. We could say to ourselves:
"well, I still have a long time before I make that choice, I will probably live another 30 or 40 years, so I'll just put it off and follow Jesus then!

In this scenario of delayed action we can see something else at work other than a lack of faith. We can see that this person's heart is not really after God.

We know from the Bible, that we need to have faith in order to make it into heaven. If you are like me you have probably had conversations with someone who is unsaved and has pointed out to you:

"I cannot just choose to believe. A person either believes or he does not"

That person might protest that there just is not sufficient evidence to command his belief. It just is not convincing, they want proof.

God does not want people to believe because there is proof of his existence and proof of his will. God says the proof is all around them, plenty enough to convince people of his existence. What God wants is for people to come to him through faith, just simple childlike faith of believing what he says without proof be necessary.

John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

It seems as though, believing God, is funtionally equal to being righteous, in God's eyes. That is not much to ask seemingly, compared with obeying God's will, as expressed in the law, for instance. God said in the garden: "If you eat that fruit, you will die!" Had  Adam just believed God . . .  but  oh well!

Problem is we do not believe God, at least the unsaved do not. Another problem is, that one cannot just choose to believe something. If I were to say to you, "Just believe that cubes have no edges or corners, and I willgive you a million dollars!", could you collect that reward? I doubt your could. Belief is not a simple choice choice you can make, like picking what flavor of ice cream to eat.

You cannot, therefore, hold rationally, in the face of what you know to be true, that free will let's you choose to believe something. Faith is a gift from God, to those to whom He gives the grace to beleive, those who he chose.  Speaking about those who are slaves to sin (the unsaved) Pauls says in  Romans 8:

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Not even able to do so? Free will is an interesting notion in the face of "not even able to do so". We need a liberator, one who can open our eyes, unplug ouu ears, create in us a new heart,, free us from bondage to sin, give us like, save us from out bodies of sin and death!We need to just siimply have faith, but we cannot muster that up, that is God's  job, and His gift to some.

[angels4u]

41 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

By the way, I cannot help but notice, that I had no takers when I asked those who believe in free will:

Have you ever sinned?

If so, did you choose to do that?

Do you think you can live out the rest of your life, never sinning again?

If not, why not, since you have free will?

 

Ok Mega, I forgot to answer your questions.

Did I ever sin ?" Yes" I was born in sin. (  how about you?

Did I choose to be born in sin  ? "No" ( how about you?

Do I think I can live the rest of my life without sinning? "No" ( how about you?

Why not, because I'm not perfected yet , Jesus died for my sin,forgave me for all the my sin when I gave my heart to Him and He is my mediator  before God .

He will forgive me over and over ~~~~

 

…18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it

1 John 1:8

⁸ If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

Galatians 5:16New International Version (NIV)

¹⁶ So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

1 John 2:1

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father —Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the sins of the whole world.…

 

 

[hmbld]

1 hour ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Problem is we do not believe God, at least the unsaved do not. Another problem is, that one cannot just choose to believe something. If I were to say to you, "Just believe that cubes have no edges or corners, and I willgive you a million dollars!", could you collect that reward? I doubt your could. Belief is not a simple choice choice you can make, like picking what flavor of ice cream to eat.

You cannot, therefore, hold rationally, in the face of what you know to be true, that free will let's you choose to believe something. Faith is a gift from God, to those to whom He gives the grace to beleive, those who he chose.  Speaking about those who are slaves to sin (the unsaved) Pauls says in  Romans 8:

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Not even able to do so? Free will is an interesting notion in the face of "not even able to do so". We need a liberator, one who can open our eyes, unplug ouu ears, create in us a new heart,, free us from bondage to sin, give us like, save us from out bodies of sin and death!We need to just siimply have faith, but we cannot muster that up, that is God's  job, and His gift to some.

I am seeing your point a little clearer every day, (I think!)

Even your 4 free will questions, I did not understand yesterday, but today, I see the point your making.  

I think much of what your saying, depends on understanding something we can never understand, that is, God's foreknowledge, it changes your perspective depending how you understand foreknowledge.  

Question: "for it is not even able to do so", I agree, we do not have free will to come to God, so God gives us faith, and at this point, do we have free will in our response?   I suspect your already going there, and obviously faith does not automatically bring salvation:  James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

[Willa]

5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Willa, as much as I would love to respond to the "small portion", there is far too much there. A lot of it looks like different people quoted as making the same argument. I probably am not getting what is being said, but it looks as though this unlimited atonement, the focus on "all" could be construed as an argument for universal salvation. We know that not all are saved, so clearly that is not the case. Only few are saved, and the Bible frequently refers to them as chosen by God, before the foundation of the world. We also see, as I have already  pointed out, that people believe because they were beneficiaries of God love, not that God lovd them because of their belief. Additionally we have seen that they are saved by Gods grace alone, not as a result of anything they have done.

Any position that does not incorporate these Biblical truths harmoniously, is a position that is rejecting portions of scripture, and is therefore untrue. 

If you want to take some thing from that "small portion" and distill it down into something more basic that even I can follow and understand, I would be happy to respond to that.

Omegaman, I have abridged Ron Rhodes argument for 4 point Calvinism by eliminating most quotations by people other than Calvin.  As usual, when I present Scriptural evidence that disagrees with your take on it all, you either dismiss it or eliminate it.  Now you say you don't understand God's Word????  One of the chief arguments of 5 point Calvinists is that the whole world only means the Church and that all doesn't mean everyone.  Why are you afraid of the truth?

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Perhaps, you are arguing against your interpretation of Calvinism. Sort of a straw man, don't you think?

Not really.  Calvinism says not all will be saved because God has decreed that only some will be saved.  The Bible says all will not be saved because all will not repent and believe.

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Have you ever sinned?

Sure.

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

If so, did you choose to do that?

Yes.

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Do you think you can live out the rest of your life, never sinning again?

Not likely.

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

If not, why not, since you have free will?

Because one has free will, one allows the flesh to take control from time to time.  That too is a choice, and establishes free will. So your questions prove the existence of free will.

[Omegaman 3.0]

3 hours ago, angels4u said:

Ok Mega, I forgot to answer your questions.

Did I ever sin ?" Yes" I was born in sin. (  how about you?

Did I choose to be born in sin  ? "No" ( how about you?

Do I think I can live the rest of my life without sinning? "No" ( how about you?

Why not, because I'm not perfected yet , Jesus died for my sin,forgave me for all the my sin when I gave my heart to Him and He is my mediator  before God .

Thanks angels,

However, I did not as if you were born in sin, I asked: "Have you sinned? In other words, since that time when you were born in sin, have you ever done something, that was against God's will, have you done any action, wherein you have fallen short of God's standard of perfection? How about me? Sure, I have sinned. I have lied. I have exceeded the speed limit by at least 1 mile per hour. I used a company photo-copier, once, without getting the approval of the stockholders or their representatives (theft). One time, I even got angry at a person who tried to run me off the road when I was riding a motorcycle, I even tried to act in vengeance, by throwing an apple core at him. Sure, I have sinned, I sin in these posts through my pride and arrogance! You did not answer my question, but I think it is safe to assume, that you have sinned at some point in your life, if not in the last year!

You did not answer my second question either. I did not ask if you chose to be born in sin, I asked, assuming you had sinned, was that a choice? In other words, when you did whatever it was, the last time you sinned, did you choose to do so, as opposed to it being a total accident or being forced against you will? I am going to guess, like I think is true for most people, that you sinned as a choice!  . . .  and yes, last time I sinned, it was my choice to do so. 

Your third answer, was that you do not believe that you can live the rest of your life without sinning. I agree with you, you probably cannot, and neither can I, or at least, neither will I.

Finally you said: "Why not, because I'm not perfected yet!"  That is true, but that is not the reason. You do not,just before you sin, say to yourself, "I think I want to sin. You know, I think I will, after all, I am not perfected  yet, so that is a good reason why I should sin"

There is a verse, 1 Cor 10:13 which says:

No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Do you see that? God says that you will not be tempted so hard, that you cannot resist, and that to make sure, He provides an alternative thing that you can choose, so you do not have to sin. He does not say, that you will be able to resist once you are perfected, He says you can already resist!

By your words, you gave your heart to Him! We have a nice way of showing our love to him, when we willfully choose to disobey Him.

So, using you as an example, and I suspect it is true for every one of us in this conversation.

We have sinned. We did so by choice. We will do so again. We have not yet, fully repented, because we choose to continue to disobey God, when He has given us the ability to obey Him (Read Romans 7).

Now, if it is true, that we Christians, who have been given a new heart, faith, a love for God, a desire to do His will, having been freed from  slavery to sin, and having been given a measure of His Spirit, so that we can understand the things of God, that we could not understand before . . .

If we still rebel in this way, what possible chance did an unregenerate person have, of coming to God as an act of his own will? It is a rhetorical question.

Speaking of Jews and Gentiles, Paul says in Romans 3:

10 as it is written,
            “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

      11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
            THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

      12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
            THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
            THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

If they do not understand, how can they believe? If they do not believe, then they lack faith. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23).

So, they are totally lost, in their total depravity, unless God steps in, and gives them faith. Thankfully for those God has chosen, He did that very thing!