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angels4u

more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

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1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

He is considered a theologian, but was not trained sufficiently in theology to write the Institutes.   The Institutes are nothing more than Calvin's opinions and they have been modified over the centuries.   Yet, his writings are treated as if they exist almost on the level of sacred Scripture.

The theologians with which he surely knew, considered his theological training sufficient did they not?

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Yet, his writings are treated as if they exist almost on the level of sacred Scripture.                           posted by Shiloh

That just always BLEW MY MIND,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I just don't understand how anyone can put man's word at the same level of God's Word & it is true Shiloh,many do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oi vey!

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5 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

That just always BLEW MY MIND,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I just don't understand how anyone can put man's word at the same level of God's Word & it is true Shiloh,many do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oi vey!

Well, considering the times kwik, it is not hard to fathom. It was not the same level, but almost.

The reformers indeed were seen as God sent, and inspired of God.

Scripture was not available for personal use until very recent Church history. All people knew was those given authority to instruct in it. It had always been that way even prior to the Christian Church. only until recently do we think it odd..

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37 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Enoob,I didn't want to derail Bobeeps thread :)

You said:

 Also total depravity in 3/4 agreement as we did die spiritually as God The Breath
of Life (Holy Spirit) left when sin began in us

Can you please explain this in different wording?

Sorry I don't really know what you mean ?

That was what the rest of what I wrote explaining :)  the 3/4 part is that we have conscientious telling us good
but we desire the sin because it satisfies flesh now... with The Holy Righteous God a blemish is to defiled for keeping...
When we take in the creative Word and Written Word we infuse ourselves with faith and that allows us to effectively
receive repentance of ourselves and be willing to die to ourselves in first born realities and receive God into our new
born being to live s/Spiritual realities....  we become a new creation where the Spirit of God enters us and seals us to
belong to God forever!  Love, Steven

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1 hour ago, angels4u said:

Thanks for your reply:

You said:

 To my mind, that Arminian perspective, robs God of the glory of saving us by His grace alone, and but salvation, into the hands of man, with God being a helper.

Why do you think it robs God from the glory?

There's absolutely nothing man can do to get saved, it's all God and He is calling us all but we decide if we accept the offer, do you think God is fair? 

 How can this be fair if He decides who will go to heaven and who are not?

 He knows our choice already,because He is all knowing.

 

I think it robs God of glory, because salvation comes from Him totally by His grace. If it is dependent on us in some way, then we are taking credit for what He alone has done.

Fair? Well, you would have to define what that means. No, He is not always fair, at least not in the way humans often define fairness. Is it fair that I sin, and deserve death and separation from God for eternity, that Jesus, who is totally innocent pays for my sins through horrible death and suffering? That is certainly not fair.

You think it is not fair that He decided who goes to Heaven? Really? First off, He made everything, and every one of us. We belong to Him and as our creator, has every right to decide our fate. Heaven is His, why should He not be able to choose who enters it? Denying Him that choice, would be like me telling you, that you have no right not to welcome a child molester into your home. If it is your place, you get to decide!

Consider the following:

  14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

      19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Do you think that has bearing on this topic? Paul points out that there is no injustice with God. He also immediately after that points out that God has the right and even makes the choice, to create some people to demonstrate His power in the form  of wrath upon them, while showing mercy to others. He also hardens who He desires. Verse 23 there shows that his glory is demonstrated in that He prepares some beforehand, to receive His mercy.

I think it is helpful, to consider several concepts.

Justice. Getting what one deserves, and/or what one has earned. Sin (and we all do that) deserves punishment. The wages (wages are earned) of sin, is death.

Mercy. Being spared from justice, not getting what we do deserve.

Grace. Getting something good, that we do not deserve.

God gives those He chooses to forgive, grace, my extending mercy to them to exempt them from His justice.

For the wages of sin is death . . .  but the gift of God is eternal life. Rom 6:23

Now, we observe, that all have sinned. (Rom 6:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ) Therefore, all deserve death, it is what we have earned.

Two criminals rob a bank. They both get found guilty. The governor of the state, has the power to pardon them for their crimes. He chooses, for reasons which he does not have to justify, to pardon one of them, but not the other. Now in human reasoning, we would say, that is not fair, because we often think that fair, means equal treatment.

A parent sends an 8 year old child to bed, but lets the 10 year old stay up an extra hour. The 8 year old protests: "But that's not fair!" Here again, we equate fairness with equal treatment. The parent, on the other hand, has the authority to treat the two children differently for reasons of his/her own, and does not need to justify that decision.

In the criminal example I just gave, the criminal who was not pardoned, cannot claim that his sentence was not just, after all, he is getting just what he deserves. So it is with sinners and God. It is not remarkable, that God does not save everyone, it is remarkable that He saves anyone.

I will not bring a charge of unfairness against God, though I realize that He does not treat everyone the same. It is not my place, to judge God by my standards, it is His place, to judge me by His standards, and His prerogative, to spare me if He chooses to do so. Sin is against God, so it falls to God to punish us, or to forgive us, it is His prerogative.

You also said: "He knows our choice already,because He is all knowing." I would not disagree with that, but I do not know what your point is about that. How do we know though, whether the reason He knows that, is because He will bring it to pass?

God indeed, knows what will happen. When He let's us know ahead of time, we call that a prophecy. We know that God's prophecies, or the things that will happen, indeed, will happen, just as He foresees. Let me give you something to ponder here.

Suppose, back in eternity, before the foundation of the world, God foresaw, that you  would come to faith in Him. Now let me ask, if He foresaw that, will it happen just as He foresaw? Of course it will. So, if way back then it was already known what would happen, and that it absolutely would come to pass . . .  could you have chosen to make it otherwise? Can you undo God's foreknowledge? If not, then in what way can you possibly claim to have had free will, it was already set is stone, before you will ever came into existence, eh?

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46 minutes ago, Joline said:

For now I stand pretty much with what kwik said.

What goes through my mind is God hardened Pharaohs heart, but pharaoh heardened his own heart???????????????Was he a tulip, or armenianist?

Also Isreal has been blinded in part. So I do not really think I stand firmly in either camp. But I think co-operstion with God, must have our own will involved

Amen:)

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2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I think it robs God of glory, because salvation comes from Him totally by His grace. If it is dependent on us in some way, then we are taking credit for what He alone has done.

Fair? Well, you would have to define what that means. No, He is not always fair, at least not in the way humans often define fairness. Is it fair that I sin, and deserve death and separation from God for eternity, that Jesus, who is totally innocent pays for my sins through horrible death and suffering? That is certainly not fair.

You think it is not fair that He decided who goes to Heaven? Really? First off, He made everything, and every one of us. We belong to Him and as our creator, has every right to decide our fate. Heaven is His, why should He not be able to choose who enters it? Denying Him that choice, would be like me telling you, that you have no right not to welcome a child molester into your home. If it is your place, you get to decide!

Consider the following:

  14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

      19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Do you think that has bearing on this topic? Paul points out that there is no injustice with God. He also immediately after that points out that God has the right and even makes the choice, to create some people to demonstrate His power in the form  of wrath upon them, while showing mercy to others. He also hardens who He desires. Verse 23 there shows that his glory is demonstrated in that He prepares some beforehand, to receive His mercy.

I think it is helpful, to consider several concepts.

Justice. Getting what one deserves, and/or what one has earned. Sin (and we all do that) deserves punishment. The wages (wages are earned) of sin, is death.

Mercy. Being spared from justice, not getting what we do deserve.

Grace. Getting something good, that we do not deserve.

God gives those He chooses to forgive, grace, my extending mercy to them to exempt them from His justice.

For the wages of sin is death . . .  but the gift of God is eternal life. Rom 6:23

Now, we observe, that all have sinned. (Rom 6:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, ) Therefore, all deserve death, it is what we have earned.

Two criminals rob a bank. They both get found guilty. The governor of the state, has the power to pardon them for their crimes. He chooses, for reasons which he does not have to justify, to pardon one of them, but not the other. Now in human reasoning, we would say, that is not fair, because we often think that fair, means equal treatment.

A parent sends an 8 year old child to bed, but lets the 10 year old stay up an extra hour. The 8 year old protests: "But that's not fair!" Here again, we equate fairness with equal treatment. The parent, on the other hand, has the authority to treat the two children differently for reasons of his/her own, and does not need to justify that decision.

In the criminal example I just gave, the criminal who was not pardoned, cannot claim that his sentence was not just, after all, he is getting just what he deserves. So it is with sinners and God. It is not remarkable, that God does not save everyone, it is remarkable that He saves anyone.

I will not bring a charge of unfairness against God, though I realize that He does not treat everyone the same. It is not my place, to judge God by my standards, it is His place, to judge me by His standards, and His prerogative, to spare me if He chooses to do so. Sin is against God, so it falls to God to punish us, or to forgive us, it is His prerogative.

You also said: "He knows our choice already,because He is all knowing." I would not disagree with that, but I do not know what your point is about that. How do we know though, whether the reason He knows that, is because He will bring it to pass?

God indeed, knows what will happen. When He let's us know ahead of time, we call that a prophecy. We know that God's prophecies, or the things that will happen, indeed, will happen, just as He foresees. Let me give you something to ponder here.

Suppose, back in eternity, before the foundation of the world, God foresaw, that you  would come to faith in Him. Now let me ask, if He foresaw that, will it happen just as He foresaw? Of course it will. So, if way back then it was already known what would happen, and that it absolutely would come to pass . . .  could you have chosen to make it otherwise? Can you undo God's foreknowledge? If not, then in what way can you possibly claim to have had free will, it was already set is stone, before you will ever came into existence, eh?

Placing the choice upon Him when He has clearly, in His Sovereignty, put it upon man would be very unglorifying  in my understanding!
Placing the total upon God clearly robs God of His Creative ability 'man in our image'... by the way how do you answer Does God have
sovereign choice of eternity? If you say yes then would not the image He created also?  Love, Steven

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31 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

 

Two criminals rob a bank. They both get found guilty. The governor of the state, has the power to pardon them for their crimes. He chooses, for reasons which he does not have to justify, to pardon one of them, but not the other. Now in human reasoning, we would say, that is not fair, because we often think that fair, means equal treatment.

 

I know you said much, but my mind works mostly on one tree at at time, instead of the whole forest lol.  Taking this example, calls to my mind that God makes Himself known to all, and everyone has a responsibility to accept God or not, which means they have a very small part in the pardoning, where as in your example of two criminals, well it makes it sound like they are at most two pawns.  

As to your comments on God's foreknowledge is set in stone, nobody can change it, does not mean that God has given us no chance to accept Him, just because He already knows everything.  God's sovereignty, is His sovereignty in jeopardy if He chooses to let man accept or reject Him?  Mega, this is a puzzle that hurts my head, I am saying I don't know.  Six years ago when God spoke to me, I would have described it as I had no choice, I could not refuse Him.  Now, I say I recognized I wanted the light, I could choose the darkness, yet I wanted nothing to do with the darkness, and I desperately threw myself at His feet and told Him I can't do it myself, I needed Him to help me.  

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Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): “We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.”

Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: “No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned...”

Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to “...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ’s sentence.” For this “heresy” Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council’s decree “Wycliffe’s bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River.”

Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.

                                                               courtesy of Bernard Starr-author of Jesus Uncensored

                                                                        Copyright © 2016 TheHuffingtonPost.com, Inc.

 

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20 minutes ago, hmbld said:

I know you said much, but my mind works mostly on one tree at at time, instead of the whole forest lol.  Taking this example, calls to my mind that God makes Himself known to all, and everyone has a responsibility to accept God or not, which means they have a very small part in the pardoning, where as in your example of two criminals, well it makes it sound like they are at most two pawns.  

 

I agree with what you say here.

If we liken this to a courtroom before a Judge it is more fitting to the Gospel this scenario IMO.

Two ( or 1000 does not matter) come before a judge, the judge finds them both guilty and he pronounces them guilty. One accepts his guilt before the Judge, and the Judge therefore lets him go upon confession of his guilt. The other one however refuses to confess or acknowledge his guiltiness before the Judge. using his own arguments as the criteria by which he is not guilty. The criteria of the court is not sufficient in his eyes to find him guilty Upon refusing to confess his guilt before the Judge, he his condemned to his guilt.

Both make a choice here. One humbles himself before the court, the other refuses to be humbled before the court. All actions Justify the judge. All proceedings are based upon the judges rules of application.

One judges the proceedings of the court as invalid in his own eyes, the other does not.

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