A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[Diaste]

 

Posted Thursday at 11:50 PM · Report post

That was the point, I think it is fairly clear that Angels are used by God and Jesus as ministers for everything they do. So when I stated that the Angels taught Paul, I don't expect to have to prove what I believe to a brother. (But you should. We are the only ones who care enough to either confirm or contradict) Just the fact that the Revelation was revealed to John by Angels is a testament to my beliefs.(But you are wrong.  Rev 1, "1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw."  If someone writes you an email and sends it, do you assume it the contents of the email were revealed to you by an admin, webmaster or ISP? No. The contents are revealed by the author not the delivery mechanism.)

 You are correct, there is always only one right answer to everything, God never contradicts Himself. This is why I never go into any subject with preconceived ideas. I read the same 10 Tribes with England as the Lion 30 years ago, I read Armstrong's stuff, I read Watchtower stuff., etc. etc. So many people latch on, and refuse to be taught by the Holy Spirit, or change. I never came to a conclusion for 30 years on pre/mid or post trib. I never believe anything, unless the Holy Spirit reveals it to me as truth. I take both/all sides of something when I decide to study a "supposed contradiction" Then I break it down until there are no contradictions left. For instance, I looked at Post/Pre and Mid and studied, and studied some more, read, and reread, the the Holy Spirit showed me, Rev. chapter 19 proves a Rapture before the Anti-Christ was defeated, so then I said I must  Must look at post-trib more carefully, because God never contradicts Himself.

The I saw quite a few reasons why post-tribbers, I think, are thinking the way they do, and I felt God showed me the contradictions in this belief, FOR ME...Not anyone else.

Take 2 Thessalonians 2, I just really do not think people can get the Old English of the KJV at times, things are backwards from the way we read them, or out of order, the emphasis sometimes is misplaced.  Allow me to post the Holman's version with a clear explanation, via my understanding.

People seem to have trouble reading that text in the Old English KJV, and they seem to invert the meaning. Holman Bible:
The Man of Lawlessness
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: we ask you, brothers, 
2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For [that day] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 

((( So what is Paul actually saying ? Paul is saying, HEY BROTHER Thessalonians, as per the coming of Jesus to Rapture us to Heaven, don't fear [that you have missed it no doubt this is what he meant) that the DAY OF THE LORD (Tribulation or Judgment) is at hand, for before the Day of the Lord comes, FIRST must come apostasy, and then the Anti-Christ. So they were fearing the Day of the Lord/Judgment was upon them, Paul told them Apostasy and the Anti-Christ must come before Judgment. So they had not missed the Rapture or Gathering together unto the Lord.Amen. )))

Is this really what you think? Why do you simply skip over what doesn't lend support? When you read the whole passage your perspective should change from a personal view to the truth. You admit this is a personal view and God showed you alone and no one else. Are you comfortable believing that? 2 Peter 1:20-21, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." Your words are the very definition of 'private interpretation of prophecy' and scripture labels this as incorrect and not of the Holy Ghost. 

This set of verses above shows the untenable position of Pre Trib and the truth of the coming of Jesus. I'm probably going to repeat myself here for emphasis.

2 Thess 2,  Verse 1 (all versions say the same thing) "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,"

Paul is linking the coming of Jesus and the gathering of the saints. Here Paul says, "...us...to Him...." That 'us' is every believer in Jesus, including Paul, and you and I.(The 'Him' in this passage needs no definition.)  Further, Paul is naming that day, entitling the moment, "The Day of the Lord".  Point 3, Paul says that two prophesied events will occur before the Day of the Lord when Jesus appears and the gathering of "...us...to Him" occurs. Pre Trib hinges on many assumptions but a main one is imminence. Pre Trib says, "No prophesied events will occur before the Rapture." From the above passage in 2 Thess 2 we see two events prophesied: apostasy, and the revealing the man of sin. Now the assumption of imminence is no longer viable and proven false. Logically then, since Paul is telling the brethren the rapture has not happened, they didn't miss it then Pre Trib assumes the rapture can yet happen. This is false. Paul is linking the Coming of Jesus with the gathering of "...us...to Him..." and placing both under the umbrella of the Day of the Lord. We all agree the Day of the Lord is when Jesus returns to unleash the Wrath of God near the end of the 70th week. This means that the gathering of "...us...to Him..." occurs in conjunction with the Coming of Jesus at the Day of the Lord sometime near the end of the 70th week.

You correctly parse the passage as allaying concern on the part of the brethren the Day of the Lord had commenced. They were troubled that they might be in the midst of that day and Paul was telling them it was untrue and relating what to look for. The error is in missing the entirety of the truth in this passage. Paul allays their concerns, likely because the brethren understood the Day of the Lord is synonymous with the Wrath of God(which is true), and they were afraid they were now subject to that wrath(which is not true), tells the brethren what to watch for before that day comes, and links Jesus' coming with the gathering of "...us...to Him..." at that great and terrible Day of the Lord when the Wrath of God is meted out. It would happen thus: Apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin(2 Thess 2:3) The sign of the Coming of the Son of Man appears and the angels are sent to gather the elect(2 Thess 2:1, Matt 24 30:31), and then the Wrath of God at the Day of the Lord.

Paul was referring to the Laws, not the scriptures passing away. All scripture is God Breathed, and worthy to instruct us. 

Yes, that's what I said as well. I was referring to the Jewish traditions and even the ordained feasts and holidays of God. I would never say scripture is passed away. In fact the ten commandments are still in effect, this is the law that is not passed away. The only thing I referenced as 'passed away' was the old covenant and traditions and liturgy surrounding such things.

The point was, all things are not new, the first covenant was the Promise of the SEED, Jesus Christ, the first covenant was not actually the LAW....It was THE PROMISE of a coming Messiah. The Law came 430 years after the promise. God made the covenant with Abraham, not with Moses per se.

You should be more careful.  Hebrews 1:13 clearly states the first covenant is made old and is decaying and ready to vanish.  1 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."  Rev 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

On 6/16/2016 at 5:13 AM, Diaste said:

: If the wrath of God lasts 3.5 years I would assume you are thinking its the 42 months after the A of D right to the end of the week. You have also acknowledged that there are saints that are alive at this time.

If the saints are not appointed to wrath then how can there be saints on earth during the wrath of God?  

Either there are no saints on earth during God's wrath, or the 42 months you speak of is not the wrath of God, or the saints that come to Christ during the 42 months are not God's people.

I said about 42 months. This is correct, if the Anti-Christ breaks the Peace, then the Red Horse (takes peace from the world) comes at about that time, the First Seal could be the Anti-Christ coming to power (7 Years), but he only breaks the deal at the midway point, hence the Wrath of God is manifested, of course the first 3 1/2 years can be the wrath of God also, he is so angry, He allows the Anti-Christ to come to power. Wrath/Anger does not have to be an immediate action.

I think I have explained three are four times why there are Saints on the Earth during the Tribulation. They MISSED THE SHOUT of the Bridegroom. They were not appointed unto wrath, they were appointed to be in Heaven with the Church, but they tarried and pit no oil in their lamps, hence they were shut out. And the Marriage was spoken of by Jesus, hence the Feast is relevant, and was anyway, it is the word of God. AMEN.

Please refer to my quote above as I iterate the point. Pre Trib says that believers are not appointed to wrath. Of course that's correct as scripture plainly states. What you are missing is you say believers are not appointed to wrath, but you have believers on earth during the wrath. This contradicts your own belief.  So either there are no believers on earth during the wrath, or the wrath you speak of is not wrath, or they are not believers, or you hold an elitist view and think that some believers are 'not appointed' but some are.

On 6/16/2016 at 5:13 AM, Diaste said:

The problem is pretrib equates tribulation with wrath. There are not equivalent. Wrath is not mentioned in connection with the end of the age until the revealing of Jesus; which follows the signs of His coming: which comes at the 6th seal; which in order is the last circumstance to be unleashed upon the earth. Whereas 'great tribulation' is on the earth immediately following the A of D. The terms are not interchangeable, to wit: 3709, orge: wrath. 2347, thlipsis: tribulation.  

 

Like I said, God does everything symmetrically. The Seals are opened by who ? JESUS, they are the Lambs wrath. A fourth of Mankind is slain (almost 2 billion people by then) God is angry at the world, these are his judgments on an evil world.

This answer has nothing to do with the point I was making. It's a false equivalency to assert tribulation is synonymous with wrath. You consistently interchange terms with what I can only define as misunderstanding of definitions. Wrath, judgment and tribulation have distinct and unique definitions  and are not interchangeable. See  my quote above.

 

After the AoD, then there is  trouble/tribulation, then IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation these signs appear in the Heavens and We return with Jesus (Rev. 19).  Nowhere does it say Gods wrath begins in the middle of His seals, Six Seals happen and then the people of earth cry and say hide us from the Wrath of the Lamb. Well all the Seals are opened by Jesus, why would anyone think all of the Seals are not Gods anger ? God would not allow Israel to take Canaan until their SINS HAD COME FULL (400 yeas). Then His wrath was poured out upon them. God gave Nineveh tome to repent, and they did, Gods wrath is come full, Just like Daniel says, and this is His wrath, at a wicked and wayward world. Daniel 8:²³ And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.  When our Sins are Come Full, the sins of the World that is, God will come to destroy these wicked men.

Why would you think they are? A cogent argument does not consist of emotional appeals or straw men. Simply asking a question does not prove a point. Just because Jesus opens the seals has no bearing on what is contained in the seals. Those facts are known from reading the descriptions. Since God is perfect He describes, in truth, just what the seals are and at no time does He say they are 'His anger'. However he does point out where His anger begins. The 6th seal. The 7th trumpet.

The Sixth Seal

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal.....16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 

Rev 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded;.... 18 thy wrath is come,

The wrath of the Lamb only begins here as it's clearly stated. Retroactively promoting this to the first seal is wrong. Do you see it? All the seal have their own unique description. This is the only seal where the wrath of the Lamb is defined and described. Even though this does not say 'God's anger' it's pretty clear it is as terms like 'wrath' and 'anger' can be interchanged and we all know Jesus is the Lamb, who is God. Again the Pre Trib assertion that wrath begins at the onset of the 70th week is false. It's pretty obvious God's anger is only poured out towards the end and not at the beginning.

This is something you're not going to like but it is scriptural. The point of the last week is two fold: to bring the people of God back to Him and to restore the earth to the rule of love and truth. The beast is coming to pressure the people of God(Jews and Christians) to return to the Lord. Then the Lord comes to put down the armies of the false ideology of Satan(rebels) and reclaim the earth. This means tribulation is for the church and wrath is for unbelievers.

God Bless brother..... I am not saying anyone is wrong or right, I am just saying if we let all of our ideas go, and trust God, He will never lead us wrong.

But we are wrong  if what we think contradicts the Word.

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Those who walk in the Spirit will be guided into the truth and shown the things to come.

• But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  John 16:13

This is why being spiritually prepared is more important than trying to prove our point.  If we are led by the Spirit, we will adjust as He reveals.  The fact that people see things differently at this point is irrelevant.  Look at all the denominations out there.  The end times will separate the contenders from the pretenders; those who are alert and prepared from those who aren't.

Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

Aren't you discounting those who are truly led by the Spirit? How do you know some are not led and are being prompted to speak the truth by the Holy Spirit? Are you saying that God does not use people to speak His truth by the power of the Spirit? Certainly you aren't stating the Spirit only prompts some believers to speak out on particular topics. You're not, are you?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Aren't you discounting those who are truly led by the Spirit? How do you know some are not led and are being prompted to speak the truth by the Holy Spirit? Are you saying that God does not use people to speak His truth by the power of the Spirit? Certainly you aren't stating the Spirit only prompts some believers to speak out on particular topics. You're not, are you?

I have no idea how what I said prompted that response.  I think you missed the point.

[Diaste]

 

On 6/18/2016 at 8:35 AM, Diaste said:

Those who walk in the Spirit will be guided into the truth and shown the things to come.

• But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  John 16:13

This is why being spiritually prepared is more important than trying to prove our point.  If we are led by the Spirit, we will adjust as He reveals.  The fact that people see things differently at this point is irrelevant.  Look at all the denominations out there.  The end times will separate the contenders from the pretenders; those who are alert and prepared from those who aren't.

Five were prepared.  Five were foolish.

Maybe some are not trying to prove a personal view point.  Maybe one of the different views is the truth as spoken by God. That would be relevant. And maybe a hard working faithful person or two is defending the truth of scripture by the leading of the Spirit and then relating that to others. For instance, I didn't even know Jesus was coming back until I was around 16 or 17. I heard that from other people, led by the Spirit into all truth, and then they told me. I think simply saying it's good enough that the Spirit will lead some and the rest is irrelevant discounts the work of those led by the Spirit to speak. I for one won't stop because I'd like to see one of those foolish virgins become wise.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Maybe some are not trying to prove a personal view point.  Maybe one of the different views is the truth as spoken by God. That would be relevant. And maybe a hard working faithful person or two is defending the truth of scripture by the leading of the Spirit and then relating that to others. For instance, I didn't even know Jesus was coming back until I was around 16 or 17. I heard that from other people, led by the Spirit into all truth, and then they told me. I think simply saying it's good enough that the Spirit will lead some and the rest is irrelevant discounts the work of those led by the Spirit to speak. I for one won't stop because I'd like to see one of those foolish virgins become wise.

Okay, I see what you're getting at.  I never meant to imply that being spiritually ready nullifies the need for knowledge of the things to come.  If that were true, we wouldn't have been told in advance what to expect.  It takes both knowledge and  spiritual preparedness, or discernment and  endurance.

There are obviously many different ways to interpret prophecy, yet only one fulfillment.  If we err in understanding, the Holy Spirit will guide us.  There's no way to compensate for being ill-prepared.  That's why I see being spiritually prepared as more important.

[Running Gator]

On 6/11/2016 at 3:29 PM, OakWood said:

 

It's just more of the over-complicated stuff that made me suspect the pre-Trib in the first place. Pre-Tribbers are thinking too hard - they are making the simple complicated.

Both theories are valid but pre-Trib is more complicated and somewhat unnecessary, and I believe that's what wishful thinking does to people. ~Almost nobody had heard of pre-Trib including great Christian thinkers until Darby proposed it and such a popular and comforting theory has become widely accepted.

If it makes you feel better to think that Jesus returns wearing a banana-colored superman cape then there's nothing in scripture to say that he won't.

Nobody had heard of the concept of the rapture till Darby, not just the Pre-Trib rapture. 

[enoob57]

Really?
http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

[Endtime_Survivors]

14 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

Nobody had heard of the concept of the rapture till Darby, not just the Pre-Trib rapture. 

 

I'm not sure how much difference that should make, as God is able to reveal new truth or perspective to us at any time. I think it's safer to deal with the teaching on the merits of what it actually says than whether or not anyone has ever heard of it.  After all, there are plenty of Jesus' teachings which many Christians these days are unaware of!

[WilliamL]

On 6/23/2016 at 4:15 AM, Out of the Shadows said:

Nobody had heard of the concept of the rapture till Darby, not just the Pre-Trib rapture. 

"In 1590, Francisco Ribera, a Catholic Jesuit, taught "futurism" the idea that most of Revelation was about the future, and therefore, not about the Catholic Church. He also taught that the rapture would happen 45 days before the end of a 3.5-year tribulation.

"The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the 17th-century American Puritans Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on earth, and then the millennium.^[24][25] Other 17th-century expressions of the rapture are found in the works of: Robert Maton, Nathaniel Homes, John Browne, Thomas Vincent, Henry Danvers, and William Sherwin.^[26] The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge^[27] and John Gill^[28] in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on earth and Jesus' second coming.

"There exists at least one 18th-century and two 19th-century pre-tribulation references: in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia by the Baptist Morgan Edwards which articulated the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture,^[29] in the writings of Catholic priest Manuel Lacunza in 1812,^[30] and by John Nelson Darby in 1827."   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture#Doctrinal_history

[Running Gator]

I guess I was wrong.