Words of Jesus proves pre-Trib rapture is false

[OakWood]

On 14/06/2016 at 6:51 PM, Rick_Parker said:

I didn't say it was. I said that the Wrath of GOD and the Great Tribulation are the same thing and take place in the final 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. Don't put words in my mouth. How am I to know your intent? I can only read your words and it read to me that you were talking in the present tense. I absolutely believe that the entirety of the Tribulation is from GOD. What we were discussing (me anyway, you are arguing) is whether the two terms, "the Great Tribulation" and the "Wrath of GOD" are the same thing. So....leave me alone, don't quote me again, please. I'm not going to read anything else that you post on this subject as all you are intent on doing is arguing and bickering over a false teaching.

So if you believe that the Tribulation is from God then you must believe that God punishes the righteous, for it is the righteous who suffer during the Tribulation. Meanwhile the unrighteous celebrate. So God has a curious habit of punishing those who believe in him, and rewarding those who don't. Is that so?

I personally believe that God ALLOWS the Tribulation to happen but it is not from him.

I will respect your wishes and now I will leave you alone. You have made it clear that you believe God punishes the righteous and you are entitled to believe that if you so wish. You have made it clear which side you are on. Others who read this can see that. I can only pray for you.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, OakWood said:

So if you believe that the Tribulation is from God then you must believe that God punishes the righteous, for it is the righteous who suffer during the Tribulation. Meanwhile the unrighteous celebrate. So God has a curious habit of punishing those who believe in him, and rewarding those who don't. Is that so?

I personally believe that God ALLOWS the Tribulation to happen but it is not from him.

I will respect your wishes and now I will leave you alone. You have made it clear that you believe God punishes the righteous and you are entitled to believe that if you so wish. You have made it clear which side you are on. Others who read this can see that. I can only pray for you.

No, because the righteous who suffer in the Tribulation do so at the hands of the anti-Christ as martyrs, not as hapless victims of God's Wrath.  God's wrath is not indiscriminate.

[OakWood]

5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

No, because the righteous who suffer in the Tribulation do so at the hands of the anti-Christ as martyrs, not as hapless victims of God's Wrath.  God's wrath is not indiscriminate.

Correct, that's exactly what I said. the Tribulation is not from God, but is allowed by God. Thank you for agreeing with me for once.

The Tribulation is not the wrath of God - it is the wrath of Satan (but God allows it).

The wrath of God comes after that.

Some people believe that the Tribulation and the wrath of God are one and the same. Both Shiloh and myself know that they are different.

[Guest shiloh357]

32 minutes ago, OakWood said:

Correct, that's exactly what I said. the Tribulation is not from God, but is allowed by God. Thank you for agreeing with me for once.

The Tribulation is not the wrath of God - it is the wrath of Satan (but God allows it).

The wrath of God comes after that.

Some people believe that the Tribulation and the wrath of God are one and the same. Both Shiloh and myself know that they are different.

No, we don't agree, not by a longshot and I think you know that.   The last 42 months of the Tribulation is where the majority of Revelation takes place.   It wrath of God seen in the bowls and the trumpets.   The Tribulation, the last 42 months of it take place after the peace covenant is broken.   That's when the wrath of God comes down.   Tribulation believers will be martyred at the hands of the anti-Christ at that time, while he is undergoing the wrath of God.  But those believers are they which are saved during the Tribulation, not before. They are those who did not take the mark.   They are not the Church. The Church has been taken out before the Tribulation begins.   These people rejected the Gospel, but now are receiving Christ, but at risk of their own lives.

God allows the anti-Christ to operate in the first 42 months, but in the last 42 months, proves his wrath is far superior and pours it out upon the earth.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, OakWood said:

So if you believe that the Tribulation is from God then you must believe that God punishes the righteous, for it is the righteous who suffer during the Tribulation. Meanwhile the unrighteous celebrate. So God has a curious habit of punishing those who believe in him, and rewarding those who don't. Is that so?

I personally believe that God ALLOWS the Tribulation to happen but it is not from him.

I will respect your wishes and now I will leave you alone. You have made it clear that you believe God punishes the righteous and you are entitled to believe that if you so wish. You have made it clear which side you are on. Others who read this can see that. I can only pray for you.

One final word from me because I can't let your mis-characterization of my words stand. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT GOD PUNISHES THE RIGHTEOUS! This is exactly why I want nothing to do with you. You try and manipulate people's words to suit your own agenda. Others who read this can see that too. I can only pray that the Lord will bless you with the understanding of His Word as He has me. Thank you for your prayers. Goodbye!!

[Guest Thallasa]

On ‎13‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 8:21 PM, JTC said:

I actually read the entire Bible before I joined my first church. After I joined I was told about all this rapture stuff. I really never saw that in my own readings so I don't think we can be too sure exactly how these things will happen. I know almost no one agrees with me. Fine. I'm not going to debate it because I don't know.

One thing the Bible predicts for the end times is how prevalent evil will be and how ungodly most of the world will be. I first learned that some 30 yrs ago and I remember thinking that Jesus must be a few days away because I didn't think the world could become much more evil than it already was. That was in about 1985 for anyone interested in the year. I sure was wrong. I have learned to never ask how much worse can things get. 

I've also learned all we can do is to do our very best to obey God, even though we fail at some point everyday, we must keep trying. I read on a different Christian board where some guy said since we're going to fail and sin everyday anyway we don't need to even try. Everything I understand from scripture tells me this is false. We better try. Furthermore, the longer we know Jesus we better improve.

Love this post .

[tigger398]

I think the tribulation is meant for the jewish people.

[HAZARD]

2 minutes ago, tigger398 said:

I think the tribulation is meant for the jewish people.

Hi Tigger 389.

Scriptures teach us the purpose of the tribulation is meant for the Jewish people and also judge the nations for persecuting Israel and fulfil all the prophecies of Daniel. And many people will not take the mark or worship the Antichrist and they will survive the tribulation.

To purify Israel and bring them back to a place where God can fulfil the everlasting covenants made with their fathers (Isa. 2:6; 3:26; 16:1-5; 24:1-25; 26:20, 21; Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22:17-22; Rom. 11;25-29).

 To purify Israel of all rebels (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 22;17-22;  Zech. 13:8, 9; Mal. 3:3, 4).

 To plead with and bring Israel into bond with the new covenant (Ezek. 20:33, 34; 36:24-28; Jer. 30:3-11; Zech. 12:10-13:9; mal. 4:3, 4).

 To Judge Israel and punish them for their rejection of the messiah and make them willing to accept Him when He comes the second time (Ezek. 20:33,34; Zech. 12:10-13:9; 14:1-15; Matt. 24:15-31).

To Judge the nations for their persecution of Israel (Isa. 63:1-5; Joel 3; Rev. 6:-19:21).

To bring Israel to complete repentance (Zech. 12:10-13;9 Rom. 11:26-29;  Matt. 23:39).

To fulfil the prophecies of Dan. 9:24-27; Rev. 6:1-19; 21; Matt. 24:15, 29).

To cause Israel to flee into the wilderness of Edom and Moab and to be so persecuted by the nations that Israel will have to turn to God for help (Isa. 16:1-5 Ezek. 20:33-35; Dan. 11:40-12:7; Hos. 2:14-17; Matt. 24:15-31; Rev. 12).

The Antichrist, a man, will reign over only ten kingdoms that are yet to be formed inside the yet to be revived, Old Roman Empire. (Dan. 7:23-24). Only these ten kingdoms will give their power and kingdoms to him. (Rev.13:1; 17:12-17). Certain countries will escape his rule (Dan.11:40-44). Certain countries will make war on him at the very time he is supposed to be ruling the whole world (Dan. 11:40-44). Because he will reign only over ten countries inside the Roman Empire territory and because America is not inside that territory and never will be, and because certain countries will escape him we can scripturally conclude that he will never rule America or be a world-wide dictator. Therefore, multitudes of people of many nations will also never take the mark of the beast and they will never be killed by the Antichrist for not doing so.

 

The Bible speaks of many peoples of many nations that are left after the reign of the Antichrist, people who will be alive in the Millennium and will go up yearly to worship God (Zech. 14:16-21). This further limits the kingdom of the Antichrist to only part of the world and also limits his ability to kill everyone who does not take the mark even in his own empire. According to Rev. 14:9-11, no one who has taken the mark will go into the Millennium, but will be sent to eternal Hell.

That multitudes go into the Millennium proves they have not taken the mark of the beast and have not been killed, as taught by many Bible students. If the Antichrist were to kill every person who does not take his mark, and God sends to Hell everyone who does take the mark, then there would be not one person left to enter the Millennium. Also, The mark of the beast will not be 666. There are three brands men will have a choice of taking in the days of the Antichrist inside his kingdom. They are his name, his mark, and the number of his name (Rev. 13:16-18). The name and mark of this man is not given in scripture; so no one will know what they are until he comes and men get to know what his name and mark will be, and what he will chose to put on his followers. The only one of these three brands that is given is the number of his name, and that is stated as being 666 in Rev. 13:18. So 666 is not the name or the mark of the beast. It is the number of the beast.

[FresnoJoe]

1 hour ago, tigger398 said:

I think the tribulation is meant for the Jewish people.

Even So Come LORD Jesus, Come

I will go away and return to My place Until they acknowledge their guilt and seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me. Hosea 5:15 (New American Standard Bible)

Hosanna LORD, Save Now~!

[Steve_S]

7 hours ago, Rick_Parker said:

One final word from me because I can't let your mis-characterization of my words stand. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT GOD PUNISHES THE RIGHTEOUS! This is exactly why I want nothing to do with you. You try and manipulate people's words to suit your own agenda. Others who read this can see that too. I can only pray that the Lord will bless you with the understanding of His Word as He has me. Thank you for your prayers. Goodbye!!

Rick was banned from this topic for this post. Just as a reminder, please keep it civil. We have a Zero Tolerance policy for personal insults. He was also assessed one warning point.