1 john 2:15-17 Is everything that involves fun, pleasure and entertainment is sinful? 1 John 2:15-17

[post]

14 hours ago, Ezra said:

One could certainly take "To the Pure All Things are Pure" as a Christian axiom.  But to what end? Since love of the world and the things of the world are already excluded, we could not apply that to worldliness, or lawlessness. 

This saying has to do with the contrast between religions and Bible Christianity.  Jesus already taught that to God external rituals mean nothing without faith, love, and righteousness.  But most religions -- which teach that man can earn his salvation -- insist on various purification rituals to keep their adherents "clean".  The Pharisees were the best example, but you could apply this to any religion (including False Christianity). 

However as far as entertainment goes, this proverb would not really serve.  Entertainment -- by definition -- caters to the flesh.

delicious food, by definition, caters to the flesh. but Paul in another place says eat whatever is sold in the market without raising questions of conscience, and also says that all things are lawful for him ((though not all expedient)), and in another letter warns of people abandoning the faith, with a false air of godliness forbidding eating certain foods and the pleasure of marriage. these, he says are following the teachings of demons, and are enemies of the cross. in another place he says of the enemies of the cross, their god is their stomach -- perhaps an odd thing to say about people who forbid eating certain foods? is he only speaking of gluttony there? are these 'different' enemies? or do some people prostrate themselves before a harsh master, unlike the one who created all things to be received with thanksgiving? 

"entertainment" is a broad, generic category. 

are you wearing an hairshirt btw?  ((just curious))

[JTC]

On 6/25/2016 at 7:11 PM, BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus said:

Hey Brethren, I have a question.

I have never this question asked before, I have seen the questions like 'is everything a sin', 'is entertainment a sin' and 'is having fun a sin' but never have I seen the question asked in the context of 1 John 2:15-17.

Does 1 John 2:15-17 (the verses about not loving the world and the things of the world) teach that everything that involves fun, pleasure and entertainment is sinful?

Obviously there is bad and immoral entertainment out there and the Bible does talk about the pleasures of sin for a season (Hebrews 11:25), but is EVERYTHING that involves fun, pleasure and entertainment is sinful? things like non-hymnal music, hobbies, sports (I'm not a fan there but I know others are), video games, etc.

I saw one YouTube video where a Christian named Jefferson Bethke said that God made pleasurable things and they should produce thankfulness and a comment involved quotation of 1 John 2:15 as a rebuttal. Another example from the otherside is from Steven Anderson, the YouTube description (The description was written by a Christian named Matthew Stucky but it was for Steven Anderson's video) of one of his videos against television reads the following: "They will preach against some television shows but shows like the Andy Griffith Show will be praised behind the pulpit.  LINE BREAK. 1 John 2:15-16 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. LINE BREAK. The Bible tells us not to love the world. The television and movies are of the world. " To be fair, he went into more detail about why he didn't approve of the show further in the description talking about how the show made a mockery of being a drunk and other things, but I just wanted to give you an idea of how the verses are used.

1 John 2:15-17 is part of the Bible and I'm not going to ignore it, Revelation 22:19 sends a severe warning against adding or taking away from the Bible, but I will be honest, I get nervous when hear the verses quoted because almost everytime I hear them quoted, the person quoting them is saying that EVERYTHING that involves fun, pleasure and entertainment is sinful.

I find it interesting that the Love of God is to keep his commandments and his commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3), and the commandments to love God with all my heart, soul and mind and to love my neighbor as myself are anything but burdensome, but the commandment to 'thou shalt not have fun' certainly is burdensome, and it's not that I am not willing to sacrifice pleasurable things for the cause of Christ, I certainly am, but I am burdened by the idea that pleasure on earth is evil within itself. I also keep what I hope is the correct interpretation of 1 John 2:15-17, which is to know that this earth is not our home and to have an focus on the everlasting life to come, to not follow ungodly desires (lusts of the flesh and lusts of the eyes) and not be prideful  (ths pride of life).

What are your thoughts? God Bless you all.

Hello and welcome to the board.

   I mean no offense by this but I think you are both a young person and new to being a Christian. You have high aspirations for yourself which is good. But in my experience if you try you wipe out every fun sin too soon you'll just have a sin relapse. You will get disgusted. It happened to me when when I was a new Christian. 

   I want to address some of the concerns you mentioned. Secular music and TV shows. With music be careful about the lyrics. If they're singing about the devil, suicide, or even drugs it's sin. But suppose it's a love song? They aren't actually sinful but if they make you sad because you don't have a true love then the song is not good for you. Conversely, if you do have someone you love then there's no harm in it. So take notice of what kind of feelings the song causes you to have. The same can be said about TV shows. If they cause sinful desires then for you they are sin. Video games is a tough one to call. I wouldn't play it if you're fighting demons, witches, or devil like monsters. "Painkiller" is 1 example. Another is "Max Payne" where you don't even find out you're really fighting creatures from Hell until almost the end. But you've probably heard the saying that idle hands are the devils play things. This is true. We need to keep occupied and often a video game may be the only way to do it. They can also help a person release pent up anger, which is almost unavoidable at times.

   Sports is strange. When I became a Christian 30+ yrs ago all sports were considered sinful. But people like them and now they aren't. But gambling can quickly become addictive and a sin. So sports is a fine line. But if you do them with good people they aren't intrinsically sinful. I'm lucky because they hold no interest for me.

   I want to mention an old song that is famous. The Rolling Stones first performed it, who are probably a sinful band to start with. The song is called "Sympathy for the Devil" and it is indeed about Satan. I used to love that song. But as I grew in the Lord I realized I had to give it up. But it took me years to do it.

   Your mind and heart seem to be in the right place. Someday many things that seem alright now will hold no interest for you. But right now don't be too hard on yourself. No one changes in a day, week, month nor 1 year. Being of the Lord is a lifelong proposition. You will mature with time. 

[kwikphilly]

Quote

Your mind and heart seem to be in the right place. Someday many things that seem alright now will hold no interest for you. But right now don't be too hard on yourself. No one changes in a day, week, month nor 1 year. Being of the Lord is a lifelong proposition. You will mature with time.      by JTC

Certainly,your on the right track!!! It is very good that you are truly considering these things,,,,,,,what a wonderful journey God Will take you on,just hold on to His Hand,,,,,,,,,,He Will get you where He Will have you to be & guess what,it is the greatest Joy you will ever know!

                                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik     as they say"Let go & let God"

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, post said:

are you wearing an hairshirt btw?  

UPS will be delivering it shortly.

[KPaulG]

On 6/25/2016 at 7:11 PM, BreakingTheHabbitWithJesus said:

Hey Brethren, I have a question.

I have never this question asked before, I have seen the questions like 'is everything a sin', 'is entertainment a sin' and 'is having fun a sin' but never have I seen the question asked in the context of 1 John 2:15-17.

Does 1 John 2:15-17 (the verses about not loving the world and the things of the world) teach that everything that involves fun, pleasure and entertainment is sinful?

Obviously there is bad and immoral entertainment out there and the Bible does talk about the pleasures of sin for a season (Hebrews 11:25), but is EVERYTHING that involves fun, pleasure and entertainment is sinful? things like non-hymnal music, hobbies, sports (I'm not a fan there but I know others are), video games, etc.

I saw one YouTube video where a Christian named Jefferson Bethke said that God made pleasurable things and they should produce thankfulness and a comment involved quotation of 1 John 2:15 as a rebuttal. Another example from the otherside is from Steven Anderson, the YouTube description (The description was written by a Christian named Matthew Stucky but it was for Steven Anderson's video) of one of his videos against television reads the following: "They will preach against some television shows but shows like the Andy Griffith Show will be praised behind the pulpit.  LINE BREAK. 1 John 2:15-16 "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. LINE BREAK. The Bible tells us not to love the world. The television and movies are of the world. " To be fair, he went into more detail about why he didn't approve of the show further in the description talking about how the show made a mockery of being a drunk and other things, but I just wanted to give you an idea of how the verses are used.

1 John 2:15-17 is part of the Bible and I'm not going to ignore it, Revelation 22:19 sends a severe warning against adding or taking away from the Bible, but I will be honest, I get nervous when hear the verses quoted because almost everytime I hear them quoted, the person quoting them is saying that EVERYTHING that involves fun, pleasure and entertainment is sinful.

I find it interesting that the Love of God is to keep his commandments and his commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3), and the commandments to love God with all my heart, soul and mind and to love my neighbor as myself are anything but burdensome, but the commandment to 'thou shalt not have fun' certainly is burdensome, and it's not that I am not willing to sacrifice pleasurable things for the cause of Christ, I certainly am, but I am burdened by the idea that pleasure on earth is evil within itself. I also keep what I hope is the correct interpretation of 1 John 2:15-17, which is to know that this earth is not our home and to have an focus on the everlasting life to come, to not follow ungodly desires (lusts of the flesh and lusts of the eyes) and not be prideful  (ths pride of life).

What are your thoughts? God Bless you all.

Anything that goes against the Bible is sinful. If our conscience says, "No", it's sinful for us. It may not be sinful for others.

[missmuffet]

57 minutes ago, Ezra said:

UPS will be delivering it shortly.

What is a hair shirt?

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, bopeep1909 said:

What is a hair shirt?

[A hair shirt] was used in some religious traditions to induce discomfort or pain as a sign of repentance and atonement. Cilices were originally made from sackcloth or coarse animal hair so they would irritate the skin. Other features were added to make cilices more uncomfortable, such as thin wires or twigs.

[post]

i think this is interesting too -- what the law says to do with your tithe if you were not able to bring it to the temple: 

If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you, then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
(Deuteronomy 14:24-26) 

it doesn't seem to me to lend itself towards asceticism at all . . though it does have several other implications for this discussion, IMHO, one important one being that we should not by any means neglect His presence!

((while i'm using big words, doesn't this conversation seem like it could slip into Manichaeism? and that's a heresy, right?))

[Willa]

In the 50s there was a group of people who prescribed what others should or should not do, and judged them harshly by those standards.  We weren't to go to movies (but TV was OK);  we were not to play card games, especially with playing cards, but animal rummy was OK if you didn't gamble;  we weren't to dance at all;  we weren't to smoke or chew tobacco;  we weren't to drink beer or other alcohol.  These were all considered to be "worldly",  

So my pastor treated me with disgust when I told him on the day that I was baptized that I had been up late playing pinochle with my parents the night before.  We never gambled but we did use playing cards.  It was purely a time of family fellowship and fun.  Some of my best memories are times like these.   My parents also enjoyed square dancing, which the pastor deemed sinful.  

 I had another pastor tell me that listening to any classical music other than Bach was sinful.  Listening to music that didn't have an ending was sinful.  I could only listen to hymns and Gospel music.  Christian rock had a "sinful beat."  I should never listen to anything in a minor key.  

My experience has been that those who continually condemn others for things like this are diverting our attention from the things that really matter to God--our hearts.  That is what God looks at.  In Matthew 5-7 Jesus takes a hard look and peoples hearts.  He says you are told not to murder, but I tell you if you are angry at a person (wishing he were dead) you are guilty of hellfire.  He is doing this to point out that we need to be born again, born of God as a new person whose desire is to love God and love others, and who is growing daily to be more like Jesus.   God's word is what the Holy Spirit uses to our purify our minds and our values become transformed and conformed to the mind of Christ.  God changes us from the inside out.  

Our pastor says he does whatever he wants to do.  God has changed what he wants to do.  So if you go to a tavern and feel out of place and uncomfortable with all the dirty jokes and drunkeness, God has changed what you want to do.  If you are wronged by someone and know very soon in your heart that you need to forgive them because you also make mistakes and have hurt people, God is changing a behavior.  If you can go to a rugby game and have no desire to gamble or get angry and throw beer on people or call them names, please go and enjoy it for me.  Some dancing is not lewd.  So do everything to the glory of God and your fun will be even better.

 I agree that some people see most anything as sinful.  My reply would be that if it is sin to them, they should avoid it.  I find that music with crude hateful or rebellious lyrics is depressing and makes me angry.  So I avoid that.  And I want to be able to invite Christ in me into all of my activities.  So If I think He might be uncomfortable doing it, I don't do it.   We do know that Jesus enjoyed boating and hiking, and that He spent a lot of time outdoors.  

You are doing well to check out what the Bible says about your concerns.  I don't listen much to man's opinions when they contradict the Bible.

 

 

 

[JTC]

There's also a fine point in what's said in 1 John 2: 15. John is talking about Loving the world or the things in it. The key word being to Love it. I have known many a person who considered themselves of God. But if I mentioned the rapture suddenly they looked down. "What's the matter" I asked. Usually the answer was something like the person had 1 or 2 small children and she didn't want to see her kids miss out on living. If I was fond of the woman I dropped it, if not I'd say, not too sarcastically, so you want your kids to get to experience all the hatred and pain we have? Then she said no not that but I want them to have fun. So without naming any sins a person who feels this way is guilty of Loving the world. Maybe it's an age thing but I wouldn't mind if I missed my whole life. Whatever fun I had was not worth the consequences that came later. Sometimes 25 yrs later. I think most people are taught to love the world so it might take decades to stop doing it. But you can't stop it if no one explains to you what it means. Anything can become sinful if it becomes more meaningful to you than God Himself. Likewise many things some see as terrible sins may not be sinful to you if you don't have a passion for it. I consider myself fairly old but I've reached the point where the strongest passion I have is to go to God. But even so, I still struggle with certain sins. This race we're running is not supposed to be easy. If it were then everyone would win it. And even though The Father would be pleased with that, the Bible says it isn't going to end that way.