Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

Haven`t learnt the quote thing yet, so please persevere with me.
 

Marilyn.`Yes people are beheaded in Africa & elsewhere today & throughout (church) history & obviously if they believed in the Lord they would be overcomers in Christ. However the people in Rev. 20: 4 are those who not only were beheaded for their witness to Jesus & for the word of God BUT they `had not worshipped the beast or his image & had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. (Rev. 20: 4) Very specific there wingnut.

wingnut - Agreed, it is very specific. So what are the requirements?
1. They are beheaded for their belief in Jesus and for the Word of God.
2. They do not worship the beast or his image.
3. They do not receive the mark of the beast.
Are you implying that those who have or are being beheaded now accepted the mark or worshipped the beast? If not, then they meet all the criteria necessary to be in that group. The point is in all of this, both groups are resurrected together. One group represents believers from within the church, and one group represents believers from within the great tribulation. They are together, resurrected together.

 

That is not clear thinking, bro. It`s like saying because you didn`t participate in the civil war therefore you get credits. Obviously you never had a choice to go or reject being in the civil war. (American) The same with people prior to having a choice concerning worshipping the beast & taking his mark etc. They did not have a choice because that event had not happened. Thus only those who had the choice & chose to not worship or take the mark of the beast are given credit for their choice.
The requirements are specific & require certain people to make choices. The Rev. 20: 4 people are those specifically who chose not to worship the beast or take his mark etc. Those are the ones who will come alive & reign in the Millennium.





 

Marilyn - Had you realised that when Christ rules through Israel in the Millennium there are still enemies, authorities etc to be dealt with -
1. Rebellious people in the Millennium. (Zech. 14: 17)
2. The armies of the world that gather against Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium. (Rev. 20: 7 - 9)
3. The Devil. (Rev. 20: 10)
4. Death. (1 Cor. 15: 26)

wingnut - Absolutely, this is why His reign in this day is done with an iron scepter. He is going to knock the stuffing out of them so to speak. The key is to remember that one thing Peter pleads with us not to forget. A day= a thousand years. God bless you

.

Yes the Apostle Peter tells us that `one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, & a thousand years as one day.` (2 Peter 3: 8) Here we note that it is to the Lord as a day, however that is not how it is with us. Thus the Millennium I believe is one thousand years in duration. Here are some scriptures, I see that back this up.

 

1.People live longer, but do die.

`behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing....No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; for the child shall die one hundred years old. But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.` (Isa. 65: 18 & 20)


2. People need to go up to Jerusalem once a year to the feast of Tabernacles.

`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, & to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.` (Zech. 14: 16 & 17)


3. Great gathering of nations from the four corners of the earth. This would be over a period of time.

`Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison & will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog & Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth & surrounded the camp of the saints & the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven & devoured them.` (Rev. 20: 7 – 10)

Marilyn.
 

Edited December 29, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

You said -

`Consider this analogy. When you assemble a jigsaw puzzle, how do you begin? If the picture you are trying to assemble has a horse as the centerpiece, you start by finding all the pieces that could be a part of the horse and start putting them together. The pieces either fit, or they belong elsewhere, you can't force them together and end up with the correct puzzle at the end. You must also use every piece to say you have completed it. Scripture is no different.

 

That is very good. I would like to ask you what you think is the centre piece of God`s great jigsaw?

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi wingnut,

 

I`d like to make some comments on your 2 points.

 

 

1. THE SIGNS.
 

wingnut - `Do not ignore the signs, be prepared. God gave us His word for a reason, every word within it is for each of us.`

Yes as the Body of Christ we can read about the signs that Jesus told the people of Israel. We can see `wars, Israel being a nation, false Christ`s etc` however these signs are predominately for Israel. The signs we need to be looking at are those given to the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit in His word.

The bible is about Christ, His character & His purposes for the 3 groups. The Body of Christ, Israel & the nations. We can read God`s word & learn of these things but `every word` does NOT apply to us.

2. THE PATTERN.
 

wingnut - `They all go through their situation, they are not removed from it. God protects & delivers them from their situation.`

We see from your examples – 3 men in fiery furnace, Daniel in lion`s den & Noah through the flood, - that these people went through trials & came out unharmed. Other examples you gave – Jesus, the apostles & people today getting killed for their faith – all are killed.

 

The point I think you are bringing out is that none of them are not removed from the situation. It seems that is a reason you don`t believe in the `catching away,` prior to the tribulation. I see so many caught up in this seemingly endless debate – the details – when really when we understand the `big picture,` (what you were referring to in another post) – when we understand God`s purposes for the 3 groups then the details will obviously fit into that.

 

Finally – actually there is an example of someone being removed from the judgment situation that was about to come on the world. It was Enoch. `By faith Enoch was taken so that he did not see death. " & was not found because God had taken him,...` (Heb. 11: 5) Enoch was taken by God prior to the judgment of the flood. (Gen.5: 21 -32)

 

Mmmmm something to think on, ay. Marilyn.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Marilyn C

[S.T. Ranger]

Merry Christmas, my friend, hope yours was a joyful one, and thanks for the response.

 

Hello again ranger,

 

Thank you, and yes my Christmas was joyful, hope yours was as well.  You are more than welcome for the response, I am always willing to discuss scripture.  I will start with your first question and work my way down, but I would like to attempt to stay with the original topic.  Specifically the resurrection topic.  I think this is the epi-center, and so we have to work our way out from there.  However, this chronology issue has to be addressed, so I am going to present some scripture and ask you some direct questions that I must know your answer to in order to understand what you are saying.

 

The first question to ask is how can this be the first resurrection (in sequence) when the Two Witnesses are not only resurrected in ch.11 but raptured?

 

I am slightly puzzled by the question, because I thought we agreed that the rapture is a resurrection, yet now you are trying to separate the two.  But to answer the question, how can this be the first resurrection when the two witnesses were resurrected in chapter 11?  Revelation is not chronological.

 

Revelation 11:¹⁵ The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,    the One who is and who was,because you have taken your great power    and have begun to reign.¹⁸ The nations were angry,    and your wrath has come.The time has come for judging the dead,    and for rewarding your servants the prophetsand your people who revere your name,    both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

Revelation 22:¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

The judging of the dead only occurs once, the first passage is from Chapter 11 (Your midway point), do you see the problem here?

 

Many have tried to make the Seal, Trumpet, and Vial Judgments the same judgments based on similarities, however, when we compare these judgments we are forced to abandon that view when we acknowledge the dissimilarities between them which demand that they are different judgments.

 

Which ones demand that they are different judgements?

 

To tell someone that Revelation is not chronological is the absolute worst advice someone can give someone else in regards to understanding Revelation.

 

Hopefully the above example will have changed your thought process on this issue.  The scripture tells us that Revelation is not chronological.  When I got my degree in eschatology, I knew of no one that held your viewpoint on that, and they all believed what you are presenting, including me.  Now it's been awhile, but I'm not that old   If ncn sees that he won't be able to resist   Anyway, I am just wondering if that is the majority viewpoint now?   I seriously see no argument here scripturally.

 

Anyway, let's get back to the resurrection.

 

Revelation 20:⁴ I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ⁵ (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. ⁶ Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

Fact 1.  There are three different groups of people:  those who had been given authority to judge, those who had been beheaded, the rest of the dead.

 

Who do you think these three groups represent?

 

Fact 2.   All three groups are dead.

Fact 3.  Two of the groups: those who had been given authority to judge, those who had been beheaded come to life and reign with Him for the thousand years.

Fact 4.  The same two groups are part of the first resurrection.

Fact 5.  The same two groups are blessed and holy.

Fact 6.  The same two groups are not affected by the second death.

Fact 7.  The same two groups will be priests of God and Christ.

Fact 8.  The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.  This is the second resurrection.  The millenium separates the two as stated in the passage.

 

You seem confused on this, because in your responses it looks like you only see those who had been beheaded, and you stated that the first resurrection occurs after the millenium.  Neither of those are true.  Revelation is a complete accounting of the end times, John is not addressing the past, he is speaking to the future.  That is what a Revelation is, a revealing.  The resurrection of Christ was a given, he was clear on that in his gospel, and he touches on that again at the beginning of the book.  When he writes first resurrection, it is because it is the first resurrection within this book of prophecy.  And this prophetic book is dealing with a very specific time, the end time.

 

In doing so, John is telling you that this book is not chronological, because of the resurrection of the two witnesses 9 chapters prior to this.  He is telling you that the two witnesses are part of the first resurrection.  The same thing Paul tells us, "the dead in Christ shall rise first".

 

You are seriously trying to argue that first doesn't mean first?  Does Alpha not mean Alpha?

 

The word "first" can be seen not to represent sequential order, and we see this in the following verses:

 

I'm afraid that the scriptures you posted do not at all suggest what you claim to me, I will address your first offering and explain to you what this means to me.

 

Matthew 20:²⁰ Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.

²¹ “What is it you want?” he asked.

She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”

²² “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”

“We can,” they answered.

²³ Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

²⁴ When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. ²⁵ Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. ²⁶ Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, ²⁷ and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— ²⁸ just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

 

The goal of this passage is to be "first", to please God.  To do this you must have a servant's heart; contrite, humble, and happy to be so.  In short, to be Christlike.  This speaks to the very heart of the overall message in scripture from beginning to end, and does the opposite of what you are suggesting.

 

That this cannot possibly be the first resurrection in regards to sequence according to the resurrection which the Body of Christ will receive should be fairly obvious to us...because the First Resurrection unto glorification is none other than the Resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

The problem you have here is fairly simple, you are forgetting to apply what you already know, and trying to dismiss the word "first" as if God wrote it by mistake.

 

The two witnesses are dead, correct?

Paul tells us that the dead in Christ rise first, and then those who are alive join them, correct?

Therefore when the two dead witnesses rise, those alive will follow them, correct?

In your scenario you have those alive going ahead of the dead, do you see the problem?

Certainly the two witnesses qualify as the dead in Christ, correct?

This all comes from disregarding the word "first" in Revelation 20.

 

The passage in Revelation 11 establishes that the two witnesses receive the "breath of life", displaying that they receive their glorified body here, and you are trying to separate them from the first resurrection.  This only happens once in scripture prior to the millenium when addressing the end times.  They are the same event, this is one of the many things that illustrate how Revelation is not chronological.

 

When all that needs to be done is accurately identify the meaning of the word "first" and keep the order of events...

 

Exactly, and what is the definition of the word first?  According to Thorndike Barnhart dictionary it is this.

 

first , adj.  1a coming before all others; before anything else:  Sunday is the first day of the week.  First is used as the ordinal of one, in which it may be written, 1st.  SYN:  earliest, original, initial, chief, foremost, principal, leading.  1b  foremost in position, rank, or importance:  He is first in his class.  2a  playing or singing the part highest in musical pitch:  first violin, first soprano.  2b  highest in musical pitch  3 designating the lowest gear ratio of a standard automobile transmission; low.

 

first , adv.  1  before all others; before anything else:  We eat first and then feed the cat.  The good die first (Wordsworth)  2  before some other thing or event:  First bring me the chalk.  3  for the first time:  When first I met her, she was a child.  4  rather; sooner:  The soldiers said they would never give up their flag, but would die first.  I'll go to jail first.

 

first, n.  1  a person, thing, or place that comes before all others; first number or member of a series:  We were first to get here.  2  the winning position in a race or contest.  3  the first day of the month:  I'll see you on the first.  4 baseball.  first base.  5  the beginning:  the first of a storm.  6  the first gear; low gear.  7  the voice or instrument of its class taking the highest part.  8  British.  a) a place in the first class in an examination:  a first in Physics.  b)  a person who has taken a place in the first class.

 

Before all others; before anything else.  Re-defining words does not work for me, I am an English major after all.

 

Secondly, and lastly, to address further that the First Resurrection speaks of type, how do we do that?

 

That should be easy enough, just post the passage of scripture that establishes the "types" of resurrections in the end times and let's have a look.  I only see two types of resurrection in regards to the end times one of the living, and one of the dead.  Ironically, they are the only two that John or Daniel see as well.  So that would be the criteria necessary, scripture that speaks to this other type of resurrection, what do we call it?

 

 

 

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

Three verses in and we already know that understanding is possible, which is true of every revelation God has provided men. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is not given shrouded in mystery, as the Gospel of Christ and the teaching of the Rapture was in the Old Testament, but understanding is both possible and expected, and I can testify that understanding is a blessing which comforts the soul in regards to end-time events, even as our beloved brother Paul wrote of to the Thessalonians.

 

I completely agree that understanding is not only possible, but expected.  Which is why your assertion that first does not mean first is untenable.  If first does not mean first, then it is not understandable at all, that would be confusion.  Your acknowledgement of this is contradictory to your conclusions and how you have to arrive at them.

 

You say:  God wrote a book anyone can understand, but the word first doesn't mean first, see the problem?

 

But consider what is written before the Tribulation events begin:Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Heaven is opened and John is caught up.

 

What it appears you are trying to suggest here is that John being in the spirit somehow equates to this missing event in your scenario.  Consider that this is in chapter 4, and look at what John says in chapter 1.

 

Revelation 1:⁹ I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. ¹⁰ On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, ¹¹ which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”

 

First off, John was in the spirit here, correct?

Is this the rapture as well?

 

Three chapters apart, visions are random my friend, which means they should not be viewed chronologically.  There are so many examples that it is not in sequence throughout, I just keep offering them to you.  In addition, there is nothing in scripture to support joining the phrase "in the spirit" with the rapture or any resurrection.  Are we not "in the spirit" when we read scripture?  When we pray?  During worship?

 

On top of that, John would have died more than once in your scenario, because he wrote Revelation after the vision and died some time later.  He could not have been there and gone through the entire thing without having died himself at the first resurrection.  He still has to write it down, see the problem here?

 

I want to offer you an illustration from my personal perspective for your consideration and response.

 

Revelation 20:⁴ I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

My father passed away some time ago now, he was a christian, he believed the same thing you do.  Right now he is with Jesus, and when we arrive at the first resurrection, he is one of those who had been given authority to judge.

 

Currently, our brothers and sisters in Christ are being murdered all over the world, particularly in Africa.  Many of them have been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God.  Right now they are with Jesus, and when we arrive at the first resurrection, they are in that second group.  We also know for certain that this second group includes people from within the great tribulation.  This is the first resurrection, see the problem?

 

The passage clearly states, "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."  They came to life, think about that.  There are only two types of resurrection in relation to the end times, one for the living, and one for the dead.  One takes place before the millenium, the other takes place after.  Do you not see in scripture that the group in this first resurrection are the ones to reign with Him?  Does scripture not tell you that you are in that group?

 

Your argument doesn't even agree with itself.  This is why I no longer believe what you currently do.  I am not attacking anyone with this viewpoint, I am displaying why it falls apart under scrutiny, as it did for me.  Everything I have to say I have already said to myself, so I want to be clear that all of this comes from the heart, with all the love of Jesus that is in me.

 

Not entirely accurate: everyone from each of these Churches who overcomes will be caught up.

 

The above statement was in response to what I posted regarding the letters to the churches.  We don't disagree that they will be caught up, the question is when.  There is nothing in any of these letters to indicate that these churches are removed prior to the first resurrection.  In fact, the only one to imply that any of them are going anywhere points right to the first resurrection.  And then there is this letter.

 

Revelation 2:⁸ “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. ⁹ I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. ¹⁰ Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

¹¹ Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

 

Focus on the underlined passages please.  Do not be afraid of what your are about to suffer.  The devil is going to put some of them in prison.  Not wicked men, not corrupt chiefs, the devil.  When does this take place?

 

Revelation 13:³ One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. ⁴ People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” ⁵ The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. ⁶ It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. ⁷ It was given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them.

 

Revelation 13:⁹ Whoever has ears, let them hear.

¹⁰ “If anyone is to go into captivity,    into captivity they will go.If anyone is to be killed with the sword,    with the sword they will be killed.”

This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

 

John connects these two things together, in each letter to the churches he uses the phrase "Whoever has ears, let them hear", and you will notice right here in these passages the word "saints", which is the equivalent of believers, which is what we call those within the church today, saints.  You say the church is gone, and yet here they are.

 

And what does John write at the end of the letter to Smyrna, The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.  And who in Revelation 20 is not hurt by the second death?  Those who take part in the first resurrection.  That includes this church, they are part of the first resurrection, which happens just prior to the millenium.

 

There is nothing in the letter to Smyrna to indicate the Lord has one single grievance with this church, and what is said to them places them right in the midst of the mark of the beast, do you see the problem here?

 

Jesus tells us over and over again to be prepared.  What you suggest is that I need to be prepared for an evacuation that will come unexpectedly.  If I am being evacuated unexpectedly, what do I need to be prepared for?  I have nothing to worry about at that point.

 

When Jesus tells me to be prepared, this is what I think of.

 

Ephesians 6:¹⁰ Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. ¹¹ Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. ¹² For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. ¹³ Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. ¹⁴ Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, ¹⁵ and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. ¹⁶ In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. ¹⁷ Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

¹⁸ And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. ¹⁹ Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, ²⁰ for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should.

 

Paul tells us how to prepare ourselves for the day of evil, what does that mean to you?

Paul tells us to stand our ground in that day, what does that say to you?

Paul emphasizes to stand firm then, in that day of evil, what does that say to you?

 

I fear you are preparing yourself for an evacuation, when scripture makes it apparent you should be preparing for war.  Furthermore, this is the message being given to the future generation, so this is why I challenge what you are saying with scripture.  This letter is also written to the church, see the problem here?

 

This reference to resurrection reaches into the eternal state, and is not a timeline for the Tribulation. Within that framework we have no less than one thousand and seven years. Where the Church is raptured cannot be designated by this passage.

 

Your above response is regarding this passage from I Corinthians.

 

I Corinthians 15:²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. ²⁴ Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. ²⁵ For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. ²⁶ The last enemy to be destroyed is death. ²⁷ For he “has put everything under his feet.”

 

Surely you can't be serious.  Paul places this precisely where John does in Revelation, just prior to the millenium (verse 25).  He finishes the job, and puts everything under his feet.  The exact same sequence John gives, but in verse 23 Paul specifies the order of resurrection to a glorified body.  Christ, the firstfruits, then when he comes, those who belong to Him.  Then the end will come.  It says exactly what it says.  To suggest that the passage does not speak to the timeline in the end leaves me with this expression. 

 

Continued......

On a tablet so I will just present a few comment to your post.

The primary issues would be first, I would ask you to review the post dealing with ''first.'' I have given a link to Strong's. You gave a dictionary for first, now take a look at the definition of protos.

As a second note on that issue, tell me if the''first covenant'' spoken of by the writer of Hebrews is the first covenant. I gave a number of verses where we can see a sequential meaning is not in view. Your response leads me to think you didn't read my post, and I cannot invest time in discussion like that. Again, the first resurrection would be that of the Lord, if we are speaking of order and sequence.

In regards to going to school and a majority view, that would the a-millennial view, lol.

In regards to your puzzlement concerning my position on the Rapture being a resurrection, it is in regards the the Rapture of the Church. However, these are two separate and distinct parts. We are resurrected then raptures (caught up). It is not the resurrection that catches away, but the Lord raising us and then raising us, lol.

The first resurrection does not imply rapture, but resurrection only.

As far as Revelation being chronological or not, I know its the popular view that it isn't, but I suggest that view is rooted in apologetics within an a-millennial framework. What other prophetic Scripture do we have that follows that pattern?

None.

You have Revelation as the time of the end of the Tribulation by correlating it to a similar statement in Revelation 20 (you mistakenly have 22 in your post, by the way) when some problems with that would be that first, this is at the end of the Kingdom (not the end of the Tribulation), and secondly we still have the seven Vial Judgments, making it impossible that this is the end of the Tribulation. Problems like this disappear when the order God gave them in us maintained.

I will just address one more issue for now, which is the attempt to make the judgments the same to make the seventh Trumpet judgment the end because it is thought this is ''the last trump of the Rapture.''

In the second Trumpet, Revelation 8:9, we see a third of the creatures in the sea die; in Revelation 16:3 we see in the second Vial...every living soul in the sea dies.

This clarifies they are not the same judgment, hence we do well to maintain Revelation as it is given.

Sorry for this response being short, but using this tablet is killing me, lol. Worked on one for several hours yesterday and when I posted...the thread had been locked due to certain members abusing each other. So just a few key issues we need to focus on before we can really progress.

The First Resurrection of CH.20 is not the first in sequence, but first in type. That is an important distinction to make.

Revelation is chronological, despite the views of institutions of ''higher learning.''

The judgments are, though similar, separate and distinct judgments.

God bless.

[KPaulG]

 

 

 I would like to thank you as well, for jogging my old brain 

 

 

"Old" being the operative word , thought I'd get that in there for you wing. 

 

Oh my dear friend, as I was typing that I knew it would draw your attention

 

LOL

[S.T. Ranger]

The one problem the Post-Tribulation believer is going to have is actually finding a text which teaches a resurrection in this time. No such resurrection exists. You view "those taken" as being raptured, when this is incorrect. When we consult the parallel passage in Luke we see that those taken (and see the Greek on "taken" and "left" for an interesting bit of trivia, lol)...

...die:Luke 17:32-37

King James Version (KJV)

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

A few things to consider:

1. those saved in the examples given did not "leave" but were left behind; those that fell to the judgment...died;

2. we cannot debate whether this refers to Christ's Return;

3. in v.33 we see that in view is either preservation or loss of life, even as it was in the examples used by the Lord;

4. the disciples' question "Where, Lord?" can only refer to "Where are they taken, and His answer refers to where the eagles are gathered, which speaks of carcasses and carrion fowl.

 

Continued from post #317....

 

Well, you are the first person I have ever heard try to say that the imagery established here is not referring to the rapture. 

I know of no serious theologian that confuses this as a rapture passage.

Let me clarify this for you, so you will understand this is no problem for me to reconcile with everything.

 

You answered it yourself, where are they taken?  What imagery is this we are given?

 

Revelation 19:¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

This takes place at the end of the Tribulation, and is in view in regards to like 17.

 

The reason you will find those taken here, is because they were resurrected just prior to this, and from that point on they will be following Jesus wherever He goes.  They represent part of that army following Him.  This is where He goes, so this is where you will find those taken, understand?

No, lol, because you miss what is said in both passages: when Christ returns, those taken are the ones that die. They become fodder for carrion fowl.

 

Oh and by the way, what precedes the above passage.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

 

Again, this is the phrase referencing His reign, the millenium, applied to this specific battle, also linked to the Fall of Babylon with the reference to the winepress, and when do all these things happen?  On the last day.  The millenium is a day, not a thousand years.  Everything you associate with the millenium is referring to eternity.  His reign is one of vengeance, there is a huge difference between the two.

 

And with this statement I can see no need for further discussion about the Rapture of the Church. I just can't seriously engage an a-millennial view, and was not until this point understanding your view. If the thousand years clearly spoken of in Revelation is rejected, all discussion becomes meaningless.

Again, what does Peter say?

 

II Peter 3:⁸ But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

Peter is discussing the day of the Lord in this entire chapter, so any attempt to say this does not apply to the end times is futile.  And what is that one thing we are not to forget?  A day= a thousand years.  The millenium is a day, the day of the Lord.  It is a day of extreme violence and wrath.

 

II Peter 3:¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

 

Peter goes on to attach the symbol of the thief directly to the day of the Lord.  Why?  Simple, because this is when He comes, on the beginning of this day, when that 7th trumpet sounds.

 

So to answer your question, who populates the millenial kingdom?

 

Revelation 6:¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

These people above, which are also these people below.

 

Revelation 9:²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

Which are also these same people.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

And let us not forget these people.

 

Revelation 11:¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

Mostly what is left at this point are opposed to God.  The majority of believers will have been executed by this point, whatever remains will either be locked up in prison awaiting execution, or the group of survivors in Jerusalem who give glory to God following the first resurrection.  Keep in mind that Jerusalem has been handed over to the Gentiles for this 42 month period, so these survivors are most likely Gentiles.

 

First, while I can appreciate an association of the Sixth Day with the Six Judgment/s, I would remind you that it is still the sixth, not the seventh, which I also see in the Millennial Kingdom, meaning, the Kingdom can be viewed as the "rest" which this current universe will receive prior to passing away and yielding to the new heavens and earth.

 

He will rule them with an iron scepter, and somehow you equate this with rest?  There is no rest, there is judgement, wrath.  Rest comes when everything has been placed under his feet.

 

Secondly, Christ does not Return during any of the Sixth Judgments.

 

Really, who is speaking here?

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

Who is coming?  Jesus.  Who gave us the sign of the thief?  Jesus.  If this were a snake, it would bite you

There are 7 trumpets in Revelation, following the 7th trumpet, there are no more trumpets mentioned.  That would make the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet, which is precisely what Paul wrote.  The fact is, this is precisely when the resurrection occurs, before the 6th judgements have finished this last trumpet will sound.  This is what scripture says.

 

Again, the "sign" is the actual return of Christ. For those in rebellion against God, who are under the power of Antichrist and strong delusion of God, when the destruction that takes place at His return occurs, they will never know what hit them. At least, they will not see it coming. The soldier in the trenches will be under the impression that he is on the side of right, which the Return of Christ will dispel that immediately.

 

Incorrect.  The event is His second coming, the sign attached to it by Jesus is the thief, and also the fig tree, as well as the signs in the heavenly bodies.  Each one of these appears during the 6th judgements, not prior to the tribulation, but during it, and very near the end.  So when you read Revelation 16:15 understand that this is what He is saying.

 

"Look, I am coming.  Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left."

 

That is precisely what He is telling you here.  This is a great big neon sign flashing at you. 

 

 

The above statement was made in response to Revelation 14.  First, it must occur when the tribulation is still in progress, because that is when He comes by all accounts of scripture.  It is also when John writes that the first resurrection takes place.  Anyway, let's look at these two resurrections in chapter 14, the same two resurrections you see in chapter 20.

 

Revelation 14:¹⁴ I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. ¹⁵ Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” ¹⁶ So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

 

This is the first resurrection.

 

Revelation 14:¹⁷ Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. ¹⁸ Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” ¹⁹ The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. ²⁰ They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

 

This is the second resurrection.  These are the only two resurrections that occur in this time period.  Notice that Jesus does the first resurrection, and the angel does the second resurrection.  Also pay attention to what is said in the second resurrection, again, this reference to the winepress points to the Fall of Babylon.  What is the final thing to be destroyed?  Death.  If death is gone, then there are no more dead.

 

So we have Christ receiving commands from...an Angel?

 

The command comes from God the Father, because He is the only one who knows the day or hour.  Jesus is waiting for the Father to give the word, we all know that.  The angel is merely delivering a message, one of the tasks we quite often see an angel doing.  What does the angel say, "for the time to reap has come."  What time do you think he is referring to?

 

Revelation 22:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This can be said because those that have overcome are not in need of the invitation, because they have entered into salvation already. This is, I believe, a strong indication that the Church will not go through the Tribulation.

 

Incorrect.  While we agree that overcomers are not in need of an invitation, this can be said because this book is a prophetic one, and is speaking to what is to come.  This entire prophecy was for all the churches from the day it was written until we arrive at the end.  You are trying to take what this says and apply it as if "it is done", big difference in perspectives there.

 

Something else to add for consideration.

 

The Israelites did not come up out of Egypt until after the ten plagues.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in to the fiery furnace.

Daniel went in to the Lion's den.

Noah went through the flood.

Jesus suffered the cross.

The apostles went through their tribulation.

People right now are being killed for their faith in Jesus.

 

It goes on and on and on....

 

Anyway, I think that covers everything.  I look forward to your reply, God bless you.

The one problem the Post-Tribulation believer is going to have is actually finding a text which teaches a resurrection in this time. No such resurrection exists. You view "those taken" as being raptured, when this is incorrect. When we consult the parallel passage in Luke we see that those taken (and see the Greek on "taken" and "left" for an interesting bit of trivia, lol)...

...die:Luke 17:32-37

King James Version (KJV)

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

A few things to consider:

1. those saved in the examples given did not "leave" but were left behind; those that fell to the judgment...died;

2. we cannot debate whether this refers to Christ's Return;

3. in v.33 we see that in view is either preservation or loss of life, even as it was in the examples used by the Lord;

4. the disciples' question "Where, Lord?" can only refer to "Where are they taken, and His answer refers to where the eagles are gathered, which speaks of carcasses and carrion fowl.

 

Continued from post #317....

 

Well, you are the first person I have ever heard try to say that the imagery established here is not referring to the rapture.  Let me clarify this for you, so you will understand this is no problem for me to reconcile with everything.

 

You answered it yourself, where are they taken?  What imagery is this we are given?

 

Revelation 19:¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

The reason you will find those taken here, is because they were resurrected just prior to this, and from that point on they will be following Jesus wherever He goes.  They represent part of that army following Him.  This is where He goes, so this is where you will find those taken, understand?

 

Oh and by the way, what precedes the above passage.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

 

Again, this is the phrase referencing His reign, the millenium, applied to this specific battle, also linked to the Fall of Babylon with the reference to the winepress, and when do all these things happen?  On the last day.  The millenium is a day, not a thousand years.  Everything you associate with the millenium is referring to eternity.  His reign is one of vengeance, there is a huge difference between the two.

 

Again, what does Peter say?

 

II Peter 3:⁸ But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

Peter is discussing the day of the Lord in this entire chapter, so any attempt to say this does not apply to the end times is futile.  And what is that one thing we are not to forget?  A day= a thousand years.  The millenium is a day, the day of the Lord.  It is a day of extreme violence and wrath.

 

II Peter 3:¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

 

Peter goes on to attach the symbol of the thief directly to the day of the Lord.  Why?  Simple, because this is when He comes, on the beginning of this day, when that 7th trumpet sounds.

 

So to answer your question, who populates the millenial kingdom?

 

Revelation 6:¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

These people above, which are also these people below.

 

Revelation 9:²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

Which are also these same people.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

And let us not forget these people.

 

Revelation 11:¹³ At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

Mostly what is left at this point are opposed to God.  The majority of believers will have been executed by this point, whatever remains will either be locked up in prison awaiting execution, or the group of survivors in Jerusalem who give glory to God following the first resurrection.  Keep in mind that Jerusalem has been handed over to the Gentiles for this 42 month period, so these survivors are most likely Gentiles.

 

First, while I can appreciate an association of the Sixth Day with the Six Judgment/s, I would remind you that it is still the sixth, not the seventh, which I also see in the Millennial Kingdom, meaning, the Kingdom can be viewed as the "rest" which this current universe will receive prior to passing away and yielding to the new heavens and earth.

 

He will rule them with an iron scepter, and somehow you equate this with rest?  There is no rest, there is judgement, wrath.  Rest comes when everything has been placed under his feet.

 

Secondly, Christ does not Return during any of the Sixth Judgments.

 

Really, who is speaking here?

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

Who is coming?  Jesus.  Who gave us the sign of the thief?  Jesus.  If this were a snake, it bite you.

 

There are 7 trumpets in Revelation, following the 7th trumpet, there are no more trumpets mentioned.  That would make the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet, which is precisely what Paul wrote.  The fact is, this is precisely when the resurrection occurs, before the 6th judgements have finished this last trumpet rect.  The event is His second coming, the sign attached to it by Jesus is the thief, and also the fig tree, as well as the signs in the heavenly bodies.  Each one of these appears during the 6th judgements, not prior to the tribulation, but during it, and very near the end.  So when you read Revelation 16:15 understand that this is what He is saying.

 

"Look, I am coming.  Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left."

 

That is precisely what He is telling you here.  This is a great big neon sign flashing at you. 

 

The above statement was made in response to Revelation 14.  First, it must occur when the tribulation is still in progress, because that is when He comes by all accounts of scripture.  It is also when John writes that the first resurrection takes place.  Anyway, let's look at these two resurrections in chapter 14, the same two resurrections you see in chapter 20.

 

Revelation 14:¹⁴ I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. ¹⁵ Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” ¹⁶ So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

 

This is the first resurrection.

 

Revelation 14:¹⁷ Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. ¹⁸ Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” ¹⁹ The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. ²⁰ They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

 

This is the second resurrection.  These are the only two resurrections that occur in this time period.  Notice that Jesus does the first resurrection, and the angel does the second resurrection.  Also pay attention to what is said in the second resurrection, again, this reference to the winepress points to the Fall of Babylon.  What is the final thing to be destroyed?  Death. 

 

The command comes from God the Father, because He is the only one who knows the day or hour.  Jesus is waiting for the Father to give the word, we all know that.  The angel is merely delivering a message, one of the tasks we quite often see an angel doing.  What does the angel say, "for the time to reap has come."  What time do you think he is referring to?

 

Revelation 22:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This can be said because those that have overcome are not in need of the invitation, because they have entered into salvation already. This is, I believe, a strong indication that the Church will not go through the Tribulation.

 

Incorrect.  While we agree that overcomers are not in need of an invitation, this can be said because this book is a prophetic one, and is speaking to what is to come.  This entire prophecy was for all the churches from the day it was written until we arrive at the end.  You are trying to take what this says and apply it as if "it is done", big difference in perspectives there.

 

Something else to add for consideration.

 

The Israelites did not come up out of Egypt until after the ten plagues.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in to the fiery furnace.

Daniel went in to the Lion's den.

Noah went through the flood.

Jesus suffered the cross.

The apostles went through their tribulation.

People right now are being killed for their faith in Jesus.

 

It goes on and on and on....

 

Anyway, I think that covers everything.  I look forward to your reply, God bless you.

Again, I will have to withdraw from discussion with you, as a denial of the Kingdom is by far the worst position one can take. It denies the thousand year Kingdom clearly prophesied throughout Scripture and discussion between an a-millennialist and a premillennial believer is usually pointless, because we approach Scripture two different ways b

That doesn't mean, my friend, that I question your salvation, only your approach to Scripture and the conclusions you have drawn. I may be interested in looking at a few items of interest such as the first resurrection, but as far as debating an eschatological timeline and how events unfold, we simply are working with two different Bibles.

God bless.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

Absolutely, this is why His reign in this day is done with an iron scepter.  He is going to knock the stuffing out of them so to speak.  The key is to remember that one thing Peter pleads with us not to forget.  A day= a thousand years.  God bless you.

 

 

 

===============================================================================================================================

 

 

The key is to remember that one thing Peter pleads with us not to forget.  A day= a thousand years.

 

 

Yet again, another "Quote Mine" and woefully contrived connection.

 

(2 Peter 3:8) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

 

This is a Simile (Figure of Speech/ Rhetorical Device):  "as a" "as".  As explained before:  This is speaking to the Timelessness of GOD.  A Thousand Years doesn't = a Literal "DAY" or vice versa.

 

Similar to this verse....

 

(Psalms 90:4) "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."

 

 

When I got my degree in eschatology

 

 

Did they happen to touch on the use of Rhetorical Devices in Scripture?  Or is that Post Doctoral content? 

 

 

 

Again, what does Peter say?

II Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Peter is discussing the day of the Lord in this entire chapter, so any attempt to say this does not apply to the end times is futile.  And what is that one thing we are not to forget?  A day= a thousand years.  The millenium is a day, the day of the Lord.

 

 

(2 Peter 3:8-11) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 

 

{9} The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  {10} But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.  {11} Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

 

This is an admonishment; that just because a LONG TIME PERIOD has come and gone doesn't Preclude the fact that The LORD will COME and fulfill all promises.  

 

Moreover, when do these events occur...."the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" ??  

 

In the Millennium??      How can Christ Reign on the Earth and the Earth be "Burned Up" @ the same time?

 

How can satan be: chained and cast into the "bottomless pit" for a thousand years, then loosed, deceive the nations "Gog and Magog" which are in the Four Quarters of The Earth---to gather them to battle on the breadth of The Earth and encompass the beloved city, then have fire COME DOWN from heaven and devour them......WHEN:

 

The Earth has already been "Burned Up" ??

 

 

 

 

And, Please Clarify....are you saying The Millennium lasts for ONE Day?

 

 

Are You saying the Day of The LORD is the Millennium ??

 

(Jeremiah 46:10) "For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates."

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

Is Isaiah speaking of the Millennium here?  So in the Millennium, Christ goes to Bozrah and "Treads The Winepress"? Who are the people the LORD is Treading and Trampling in HIS fury here...in the Millennium? 

 

 

(Revelation 1:10) "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

 

Is this Saturday? Sunday?  or, the Day of the LORD.  Can the "day of the LORD" carry a dual meaning as in a Time Period and a Specific Day @ the same time?

 

Is John, on the day of the LORD, speaking to the Millennium here in Chapter 1 of the Book of Revelation?

 

 

Maybe this will help.  There are TWO "Contexts" that Must Be satisfied with each and every Scripture Passage:

 

1.  Local : within the Passage itself.

 

2.  The Whole Counsel of GOD.  <------ this is by far the most Important.  If it doesn't "Align" here, then it's Hogwash!

 

 

Ya see, if you're telling us a story about Humpty Dumpty and during points in spinning your yarn you state that there are No Kings (Anarchy) and No Domesticated Horses...then that IPSO FACTO brings the very existence of Humpty Dumpty into question.

 

In other Words, The Veracity of any story or 'theory" MUST display Logical Consistency based on it's Inherent Tenets.  If not, it's Baloney!! (Industry Phrase)

 

Hope that helps

 

 

 

regards 

[wingnut-]

Hi wingnut,

 

Haven`t learnt the quote thing yet, so please persevere with me.

 

 

Hello again Marilyn,

 

No worries about the quote function, you just post whatever you need to however you need to. 

 

That is not clear thinking, bro. It`s like saying because you didn`t participate in the civil war therefore you get credits. Obviously you never had a choice to go or reject being in the civil war. (American) The same with people prior to having a choice concerning worshipping the beast & taking his mark etc. They did not have a choice because that event had not happened. Thus only those who had the choice & chose to not worship or take the mark of the beast are given credit for their choice.

The requirements are specific & require certain people to make choices. The Rev. 20: 4 people are those specifically who chose not to worship the beast or take his mark etc. Those are the ones who will come alive & reign in the Millennium.

 

 

I understand what you are saying in the above, but I think you are missing the point.  So let me say this another way.  Now, let's take that group we are discussing, present day saints who are being killed, and rather than place them in the group that has been beheaded, let us place them in the group with the authority to judge.  So now, the group that has been beheaded only consists of those from within the tribulation, correct?

 

These two groups are still resurrected together, in the first resurrection.  People from before, and people during, resurrected together.  The dead in Christ rise first according to scripture.  I hope that helps.

 

Yes the Apostle Peter tells us that `one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, & a thousand years as one day.` (2 Peter 3: 8) Here we note that it is to the Lord as a day, however that is not how it is with us. Thus the Millennium I believe is one thousand years in duration. Here are some scriptures, I see that back this up.

 

 

Marilyn, before he says that he says this, "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:"  The entire chapter is dedicated to the day of the Lord, so this is speaking about the end times, and he says not to forget this one thing.  Please explain how this one thing is important for us to remember?

 

`behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing....No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; for the child shall die one hundred years old. But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.` (Isa. 65: 18 & 20)

 

 

First, notice what this passage says at the beginning, "Behold, I create..."  Second, it follows this.

 

Isaiah 65:¹⁷ “See, I will create

    new heavens and a new earth.

The former things will not be remembered,

    nor will they come to mind.

¹⁸ But be glad and rejoice forever

    in what I will create,

for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight

    and its people a joy.

¹⁹ I will rejoice over Jerusalem

    and take delight in my people;

the sound of weeping and of crying

    will be heard in it no more.

 

The Lord is providing us with imagery of what eternity will be.  So how does one who always was explain something never ending to people that only understand temporal things?  He does this using examples from what we do understand.  Those verses are not saying that we will die, it is explaining that 100 years is a blink for the eternal.  The fact that you cannot overlook, is that these things follow the creation of the new heaven and earth, any way you slice it that is post-millenium.

 

`And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, & to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain.` (Zech. 14: 16 & 17)

 

 

Zechariah 14 begins with this.

 

Zechariah 14   A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

² I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

 

The nations gather together in Revelation 16:16  Then they gathered the kings together to the place in Hebrew that is called Armageddon.

 

Zechariah 14:⁶ On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. ⁷ It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

⁸ On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

⁹ The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

 

Now, what were the signs Jesus gave to the disciples regarding His coming.

 

Matthew 24:²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,

    and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

 

No sunlight, no moonlight, no stars = no distinction between day and night.

This should shed some light on what Jesus meant when He said every eye will see Him coming.  They will see Him coming because He will be the only light.  This is why Zechariah says that come evening there will be light.

 

What you propose here is this.  For one thousand years we will reside on a planet that has been destroyed, there is no sunlight, no moonlight, no starlight.  There is no drinkable water, there is nothing green left; plants, trees, etc.  First, without the sun nothing will grow, plants and trees will not grow without this.  So there is no food or water for this thousand years, no sun, no moon, no stars, completely dark.  The animal kingdom is also wiped out during the tribulation.  How is it possible for anyone to survive under these conditions?  These are the conditions described in Zechariah along with what we see in Revelation, correct?

 

And what about the reference to living water?

 

Revelation 22  Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb ² down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. ³ No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. ⁴ They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. ⁵ There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

 

Zechariah 14:⁸ On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

⁹ The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

 

The living water does not come until "It is done."  Revelation (21:6) is clear on this point.  Living water is strictly for overcomers.

 

Zechariah 14:¹⁶ Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. ¹⁷ If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain.

 

Therefore this passage is referring to what we see here.

 

Revelation 21:⁶ He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. ⁷ Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. ⁸ But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

As you can see, everything continues to point to the exact same place.  I hope this illustration helps.  The bottom line, the two cannot be separated, the living water does not come until "It is done."

 

`Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison & will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog & Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth & surrounded the camp of the saints & the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven & devoured them.` (Rev. 20: 7 – 10)

 

 

The passage above provides us a timeline, Satan is bound at the start of the millenium, and released at the end of it, for a short time.  This also coincides with the first resurrection, the first being at the start of the millenium, and the second resurrection taking place at the end.  Now there are some key phrases to keep in mind.  In the Zechariah passage (14:2), The Lord says that He will gather the nations, correct?  In the above passage it states that Satan will gather the nations, correct?  In Revelation 16:16 it states, they will gather the nations, correct?  They = The Lord and Satan.

 

Now, to address your concern over the time.  First, we have to look back at what precedes this.

 

Revelation 16:¹² The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. ¹³ Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

We see the way cleared right here, the river is dried up.  Then in verse 15 we see the first resurrection, following that they gather the kings.  So we see here that the enemies battle plan is already in place.  In verse 14 they have already sent out word for the kings to gather, correct?  They do not gather for the final battle until verse 16 though, and the reason for that is because they encounter some unexpected delays along the way.  Look at what else is happening, keeping in mind that verse 15 above is when He comes.

 

Revelation 9:¹³ The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. ¹⁴ It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” ¹⁵ And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. ¹⁶ The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.

¹⁷ The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. ¹⁸ A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. ¹⁹ The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.

²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

 

They weren't expecting to encounter any resistance crossing the river, much like Pharoah wasn't expecting the Red Sea to crash in on him either.  Keep in mind that this passage again references that very specific day and hour, this is when He comes.  The people who survive this do not repent though, they remain enemies of God as shown in verse 20.  This is where the anti-christ and the false prophet meet their demise, in the above battle.

 

Revelation 6:¹² I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, ¹³ and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. ¹⁴ The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

¹⁵ Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. ¹⁶ They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! ¹⁷ For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

The first thing they do when this begins, is try to hide.  According to Zechariah, there is so much chaos and fear that they even kill each other.  Note in this passage, the sun, moon, and stars are removed, this is the sign of His coming, correct?  The same thing Zechariah describes, correct?  In what day is this?  The great day of the wrath of the Lamb, correct?

 

We see the battle depicted from Revelation 9 in the passage below, pay close attention to the participants of this battle.

 

Revelation 19:¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

 

We see the exact same group from Revelation 6, we see the beast, and we see the false prophet.  This is not the battle of Armageddon.  The battle of Armageddon features Satan leading the remaining enemies in the final battle, with the beast and false prophet already having been eliminated.  At the conclusion of the passage from Revelation 6 it says, "²⁰ The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. ²¹ Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."  This is the group that Satan leads into the battle of Armageddon.

 

This is established here.

 

Revelation 20:¹⁰ And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

The beast and the false prophet have already been thrown in, the devil joins them after the battle of Armageddon.  Two completely different battles.  One at the beginning of the day, and one at the end.  I hope that helps.

 

You said -

 

Quote

`Consider this analogy. When you assemble a jigsaw puzzle, how do you begin? If the picture you are trying to assemble has a horse as the centerpiece, you start by finding all the pieces that could be a part of the horse and start putting them together. The pieces either fit, or they belong elsewhere, you can't force them together and end up with the correct puzzle at the end. You must also use every piece to say you have completed it. Scripture is no different.

 

That is very good. I would like to ask you what you think is the centre piece of God`s great jigsaw?

 

 

I see the unchanging purpose of God (or the centerpiece) as perfection.  What I mean by that is the elimination of evil and anything associated with it, once and for all.  Only those who are "spotless" will see this.  This is why not only does He create a new earth, but new heavens as well, because the current heavens were tainted by Satan and a third of the angels.

 

Yes as the Body of Christ we can read about the signs that Jesus told the people of Israel. We can see `wars, Israel being a nation, false Christ`s etc` however these signs are predominately for Israel. The signs we need to be looking at are those given to the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit in His word.

 

 

The people of Israel do not believe in Jesus, the New Testament is not part of their holy book.  Jesus is speaking to us, the church, we are the only ones who hold to the New Testament.  So these signs are for us, they are part of the New Testament, and what I am sharing with you is what the Holy Spirit has led me to understand.  I am part of the body.

 

The bible is about Christ, His character & His purposes for the 3 groups. The Body of Christ, Israel & the nations. We can read God`s word & learn of these things but `every word` does NOT apply to us.

 

 

I don't disagree that the bible is about Jesus, but it is also about God and the Holy Spirit as well.  I do not see three groups in regards to the body, I only see one body, one bride, one seed, one husband, one God.  I respectfully disagree with your conclusion that every word in scripture is not meant for us, the majority of sermons I have heard in my lifetime display the opposite.  Pastors take the message of passages from the past and apply them to everyday situations we face, and demonstrate how they are applicable to this day.  It is also from these very lessons that we are able to understand the character of God.

 

We see from your examples – 3 men in fiery furnace, Daniel in lion`s den & Noah through the flood, - that these people went through trials & came out unharmed. Other examples you gave – Jesus, the apostles & people today getting killed for their faith – all are killed.

 

The point I think you are bringing out is that none of them are not removed from the situation. It seems that is a reason you don`t believe in the `catching away,` prior to the tribulation.

 

 

Close.  What I am illustrating is this.  In the Old Testament examples they do go through their trials, and God preserves them.  This same thing is illustrated in Revelation 12 regarding "the woman" in the end times.  God seals them to protect them from His judgements, and keeps them out of Satan's reach.  This is how He has always dealt with the Jews.

 

Beginning with Jesus and the New Testament, we see that this changes, why?  Because believers need not fear death in our earthly bodies, the second death cannot touch us.  Everyone dies once.  Scripture tells us not to love our lives so much as to shrink from death, what does that mean to you?  This is also illustrated in Revelation 12 regarding the "offspring" in the end times.  God has always dealt with believers in the same way.

 

Finally – actually there is an example of someone being removed from the judgment situation that was about to come on the world. It was Enoch. `By faith Enoch was taken so that he did not see death. " & was not found because God had taken him,...` (Heb. 11: 5) Enoch was taken by God prior to the judgment of the flood. (Gen.5: 21 -32)

 

 

Yes, Enoch was taken, but why?

 

Genesis 5:²¹ When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. ²² After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. ²³ Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. ²⁴ Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

 

Hebrews 11:⁵ By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. ⁶ And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

 

Enoch was not taken because of the flood, in fact, the flood does not come until long after he is taken as shown in Genesis 5.  There are still generations to follow as scripture shows, nor do these passages even infer that the flood has anything to do with him leaving.  What these passages state, is that God took him because of his faith.

 

Considering that Enoch has not yet died, this tells me that Enoch is one of the two witnesses in Revelation, the other being Elijah.  These are the only two men in scripture that did not die, they still owe God a death.  This is why God took them when He did.  They represent the two lampstands, Enoch (Gentile), Elijah (Jew).

 

I hope this helps, God bless you.

[wingnut-]

Again, I will have to withdraw from discussion with you, as a denial of the Kingdom is by far the worst position one can take. It denies the thousand year Kingdom clearly prophesied throughout Scripture and discussion between an a-millennialist and a premillennial believer is usually pointless, because we approach Scripture two different ways b

That doesn't mean, my friend, that I question your salvation, only your approach to Scripture and the conclusions you have drawn. I may be interested in looking at a few items of interest such as the first resurrection, but as far as debating an eschatological timeline and how events unfold, we simply are working with two different Bibles.

God bless.

 

 

First, I do not deny the Kingdom.  However, scripture gives us the strong indication that the millenium is only a day based on the verse from II Peter.

 

II Peter 3:⁸ But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

 

Can you explain why this one thing is important to remember regarding the day of the Lord?

 

Secondly, I do understand your frustration, although I do not understand how ceasing discussions benefits anyone.  We are working with the same bible, and I really think what separates us from coming together is the issue of chronology.  So I would appreciate it if you could at least respond to the scripture I offered you in regards to the dead being judged.

 

Revelation 11:¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,

    the One who is and who was,

because you have taken your great power

    and have begun to reign.

¹⁸ The nations were angry,

    and your wrath has come.

The time has come for judging the dead,

    and for rewarding your servants the prophets

and your people who revere your name,

    both great and small—

and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

Revelation 20:¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. ¹⁴ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. ¹⁵ Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

This only happens once by my understanding of scripture, do you have an explanation for this?

 

I appreciate you indulging me in this conversation, and do hope you will reconsider continuing, or at the very least a response to the above two inquiries.  As for anything you have offered in scripture, I read every word and passage you have offered.  I may not have responded to each one, but I always take what my brothers and sisters offer me in regards to scripture and examine it.  In regards to what you offered towards the argument over whether first means first, none of what you offered to me says what you expressed to me.  I do apologize for only responding to the first offering, not because I did not read all of them, but because I do not understand them in the way you are applying them.

 

God bless you.

[wingnut-]

 

 

Hello again Enoch,

 

I would be more than happy to continue our conversation, provided you stick to the guidelines.  However, our conversation ended at the discussion of the identity of the bride, and the issue of chronology.  Until you address what I have already presented to you and display how it is reconciled to your position, I cannot accept your conclusions.  So here it is again, right where we left off.

 

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 

You have not refuted this even once, much less three times, please address this passage, particularly the underlined areas.  The symbol you have of who makes up the bride, is incorrect.  Your theory that Revelation is chronological falls apart as well, but the verse says what it says.  John ties the bride to New Jerusalem symbolically right here, your argument is with scripture, not with me.

 

A modern way to say this same thing is:

 

Little Tommy says to little Billy, "Come here, let me show you the best present I ever got."    And he showed little Billy his brand new set of Lego's.

 

You are trying to argue that the best present Tommy ever got was Lincoln Logs.  I cannot accept your scenario on the basis of scripture, or (to borrow your words to me) a "Violation of Logic."  If you can reconcile the above passage from Revelation with your scenario, please do so.

 

God bless.