Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Yes it is relevant, Rev 19 is speaking about the second coming of the Lord. The ones the Lord brings with him are the saints that have died for the past 2000 years, not the so called bride of Christ. The rapture happens at this moment in time (not 7 years prior as the pre-trib doctrine teaches). When the Lord has gathered his church we go to Israel, not to some mystical place called heaven. 

No, the Bride is all Christians, NOT SOME.............We the Church are in Heaven Marrying The LAMB....As a WHOLE, that is why we have to change to incorruptible bodies in the Twinkling of an eye. It doesn't fit your narrative so you have to tweak it to fit. The Church that Marries the Lamb is ALL OF US CHRISTIANS !! 

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Church that Marries the Lamb is ALL OF US CHRISTIANS !! 

This is true. The Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ is the Church, and the Bride becomes the Lamb's Wife.

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:7,8).

This is the robe of Christ's righteousness placed on each and every saint, hence "fine linen, clean, and white".  It is the blood of Christ which makes this possible, but all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

[Salty]

18 hours ago, Ezra said:

Except you won't find anything within Revelation to prove this.  It is pure conjecture. 

What many Christians conveniently forget is that from Revelation chapter 6 through chapter 18, we have a preview of the judgments which will come upon the unbelieving and the ungodly. The Church (or churches) are simply not mentioned in these chapters because the Church is already in Heaven.

Most certainly can find declarations of Jesus' 2nd coming and gathering of His Church in Revelation:

Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

 

That is the same as a declaration that Jesus comes on the 7th Vial to gather His Church.

The reason is simple. It's because on the 6th Vial there He is still WARNING His Church that He will come "as a thief", which is the idea that Apostles Paul and Peter taught will occur on the "day of the Lord" (1 Thess.5 & 2 Pet.3:10). And the "day of the Lord" is what those underlined events above are about!

 

[Salty]

Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Something else about that verse of warning by our Lord Jesus to His Church on earth during the tribulation...

He linked the idea of 'watching' that He first warned of in Matthew 24, which Paul also warned us of in 1 Thess.5, which Peter also warned us of in 2 Pet.3, and by our Lord again in Rev.3:3, and in Mark 13, and in Luke 12, and in Luke 21, and by Peter again in 1 Peter 4, etc.  This is an idea taught several times by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles in the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament, so no one has excuse to not be aware of it.

The fact that our Lord Jesus gave that warning there in Rev.16 within the 6th Vial timing He is showing us His coming to gather us is not until the final day of this world on the "day of the Lord".

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, Salty said:

Most certainly can find declarations of Jesus' 2nd coming and gathering of His Church in Revelation:

We must distinguish between the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. In the first event Christ comes FOR His saints.  In the second event He comes WITH His saints (where the metaphor of "clouds" is used to describe the multitudes of saints and angels, all in white):

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7).

Now, how can Christ come with His saints unless He has already come for His saints?

[Retrobyter]

3 minutes ago, Ezra said:

We must distinguish between the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. In the first event Christ comes FOR His saints.  In the second event He comes WITH His saints (where the metaphor of "clouds" is used to describe the multitudes of saints and angels, all in white):

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7).

Now, how can Christ come with His saints unless He has already come for His saints?

Shabbat shalom, "Ezra."

Ridiculous. Why can't it be BOTH? I see Him coming FOR His saints - ALL His "holy ones," btw - and then WITH His saints, coming to rescue His people, Israel! There's no "lay off" in some "Heaven" in the middle, not for seven years, 3.5 years, or however long! Instead, we go THROUGH the "heavens" (Greek: ouranoi) or the "skies" and descend right away in the Middle East!

It may seem irreverant to some, even disrespectful in some way, although it is certainly NOT intended that way, but what we have here is LITERALLY a "MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM!" It gets us away from wherever our bodies were recovered quickly to the Middle East where Yeshua` the Messiah will begin His rescue mission and take back His Land to begin His Kingdom!

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Salty said:

Most certainly can find declarations of Jesus' 2nd coming and gathering of His Church in Revelation:

Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This is for those who have put on Jesus Christs righteousness after the Rapture. You guys just can not seem to fathom that people will still get saved after the Rapture, its like a brick wall blinds you from this important truth and you keep banging your head against this wall.

 

4 hours ago, Salty said:

That is the same as a declaration that Jesus comes on the 7th Vial to gather His Church.

The reason is simple. It's because on the 6th Vial there He is still WARNING His Church that He will come "as a thief", which is the idea that Apostles Paul and Peter taught will occur on the "day of the Lord" (1 Thess.5 & 2 Pet.3:10). And the "day of the Lord" is what those underlined events above are about!

Herein lies your problem, you do not understand the difference between the Rapture and the Day of the Lord and that is not Gods fault. 

1 Thess. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Paul and Peter are speaking about the Day of Gods Wrath coming upon an unexpectant world. Not the Rapture of the Church per se.

[Revelation Man]

4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, "Ezra."

Ridiculous. Why can't it be BOTH? I see Him coming FOR His saints - ALL His "holy ones," btw - and then WITH His saints, coming to rescue His people, Israel! There's no "lay off" in some "Heaven" in the middle, not for seven years, 3.5 years, or however long! Instead, we go THROUGH the "heavens" (Greek: ouranoi) or the "skies" and descend right away in the Middle East!

It may seem irreverant to some, even disrespectful in some way, although it is certainly NOT intended that way, but what we have here is LITERALLY a "MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM!" It gets us away from wherever our bodies were recovered quickly to the Middle East where Yeshua` the Messiah will begin His rescue mission and take back His Land to begin His Kingdom!

What Ezra is saying is that he comes with his Saints (The Church) to save Israel and all the others who have become Christians since the Rapture, sadly most of the Christians will have died and are the Martyrs under the Alter, whilst Israel is being protected in the Wilderness by God. 

[Ezra]

4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Ridiculous. Why can't it be BOTH?

It can't be both for two simple reasons:

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ -- requires that all the saints are assembled in Heaven to be judged for their works prior to the Second Coming.  Before the saints can judge the world and judge angels, they themselves must be judged.

2. The Marriage of the Lamb --  requires that the marriage be completed BEFORE the Second Coming of Christ.  See Revelation 19.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 10/20/2016 at 2:49 PM, Revelation Man said:

Why would you assume I am not speaking from a "God given wisdom" point of view.

Because you're not a prophet?  
 

On 10/20/2016 at 2:49 PM, Revelation Man said:

 I do not trust nor believe anything given me of men, including my own thoughts, until I get the Unction from the Holy Spirit. .LOOK I AM REVEALING BY MY ANGEL WHO THEY ARE !! 

And did you test this spirit?  Are you even sure it was a spirit?  Do you believe every voice in your head?
 

On 10/20/2016 at 2:51 PM, Revelation Man said:

My post above pretty much should END the Thread. 

Ah!  The old: "The Holy Spirit told me!" defense ~ so you have the only truth because you say it is from God.