Pre-tribbers, what do you have

[Retrobyter]

5 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

What Ezra is saying is that he comes with his Saints (The Church) to save Israel and all the others who have become Christians since the Rapture, sadly most of the Christians will have died and are the Martyrs under the Alter, whilst Israel is being protected in the Wilderness by God. 

Shabbat shalom, Revelation Man.

Sorry, but it's STILL ridiculous! ESPECIALLY now! "Israel ... has to become Christians?" THAT'S NONSENSE! Which came first, the set whose members are "Christians" or the set whose members are called "children of Israel?" Who is said to be grafted into whom?!

Secondly, the "saints" are NOT "the Church," ESPECIALLY with a capital "C"! Look again at Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ (without a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye (still the Ephesians) who sometimes were far off are made nigh (near) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah).
14 For he (the Messiah) is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you (the Ephesians) which were afar off, and to them (the commonwealth of Israel) that were nigh (near).
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye (the Gentile Ephesians) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the commonwealth of Israel), and {ye are} of the household (the Mishpachah; the Family) of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (the head stone of the corner; the capstone);
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Who are "the saints?" They are the ones with whom Paul CONTRASTED the Ephesian Gentiles to whom He was writing!

Also, you might consider this passage:

Matthew 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

Tell me: At this point in Yeshua`s life, how many of those who would be called "Christians" were there to come out of the graves?

Who was Moses talking about?

Deuteronomy 33:1-3
1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
KJV

So, when this verse is quoted, directly or indirectly, in the New Testament, to whom do you think it is referring?

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
KJV

Revelation 15:2-3
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
KJV

Now, can Gentile believers become "saints," too? Yes, of course! But, to say that Gentile believers ONLY are the "saints" is bogus.

[Revelation Man]

15 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Revelation Man.

Sorry, but it's STILL ridiculous! ESPECIALLY now! "Israel ... has to become Christians?" THAT'S NONSENSE! Which came first, the set whose members are "Christians" or the set whose members are called "children of Israel?" Who is said to be grafted into whom?!

Secondly, the "saints" are NOT "the Church," ESPECIALLY with a capital "C"! Look again at Ephesians 2:

They have to accept Jesus as their Messiah....you can call them anything you like, but they have to accept Jesus as their Messiah. Christian only means to be CHRIST LIKE you do understand that right ? And to be Christ like should be every mans mission. He was the express image of God.

[Revelation Man]

20 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Tell me: At this point in Yeshua`s life, how many of those who would be called "Christians" were there to come out of the graves?

Who was Moses talking about?

Jesus or Yeshua means Salvation, so even the Saints believed in the COMING SEED/SAVIOR to take away their Sins. Their YESUHA or Salvation. 

22 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

So, when this verse is quoted, directly or indirectly, in the New Testament, to whom do you think it is referring?

 

He is coming with the Saints of Old and the Church who are made Saints when they Marry the Lamb, Israel is married to God, they will come back with Jesus also, not the evil one of course, their home will be hell like all evil men.

 

25 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Now, can Gentile believers become "saints," too? Yes, of course! But, to say that Gentile believers ONLY are the "saints" is bogus.

This is true. No one said Israel were not Saints, but just like Gentiles, the evil ones who trusted not in God to be their Salvation (Yeshua) will not make it to Heaven. I am speaking about Modern Day Israel, who have rejected God and Jesus as their Messiah. They must REPENT and except Jesus to become Saints of God. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus or Yeshua means Salvation, so even the Saints believed in the COMING SEED/SAVIOR to take away their Sins. Their YESHUA or Salvation. 

He is coming with the Saints of Old and the Church who are made Saints when they Marry the Lamb, Israel is married to God, they will come back with Jesus also, not the evil one of course, their home will be hell like all evil men.

 

This is true. No one said Israel were not Saints, but just like Gentiles, the evil ones who trusted not in God to be their Salvation (Yeshua) will not make it to Heaven. I am speaking about Modern Day Israel, who have rejected God and Jesus as their Messiah. They must REPENT and except Jesus to become Saints of God. 

Shabbat shalom, Revelation Man.

Sorry about the "blank post." I'm filling it now.

No, technically, OT:3442 (and OT:3443) "Yeeshuwa`" ("Jeshua" in the KJV) means "he will save" or "he will rescue" or "he will deliver." It is OT:3444 "y'shuw`aah," ending in a hei, that means "salvation" or "deliverance" or "rescue" as a noun. Look. For the umpteenth time, it is information in the Bible clearly given!

Matthew 1:20-21
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS (Yeeshuwa`) : for he shall save his people from their sins.
KJV

Now, regarding His marriage, don't you know that a Jewish marriage feast involves a celebration with wine? But, His Kingdom doesn't start until He returns!

Matthew 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
KJV

However, Yeeshuwa` (or "Yeshua`" for short) promised this:

Matthew 26:29
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
KJV

So, how could the Son of man already be celebrating during this "7 year tribulation period?" The marriage of the Lamb doesn't occur until AFTER He has returned!

Edited October 23, 2016 by Retrobyter

[ENOCH2010]

16 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No, the Bride is all Christians, NOT SOME.............We the Church are in Heaven Marrying The LAMB....As a WHOLE, that is why we have to change to incorruptible bodies in the Twinkling of an eye. It doesn't fit your narrative so you have to tweak it to fit. The Church that Marries the Lamb is ALL OF US CHRISTIANS !! 

Are the tribulation saints not going to be part of the church?

[Salty]

5 hours ago, Ezra said:

We must distinguish between the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. In the first event Christ comes FOR His saints.  In the second event He comes WITH His saints (where the metaphor of "clouds" is used to describe the multitudes of saints and angels, all in white):

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7).

Now, how can Christ come with His saints unless He has already come for His saints?

The time of the Church gathering to Christ is ... the time of the resurrection and the 2nd coming of Christ. The Pre-trib Rapture doctors create another coming event which is not written in Scripture. What I covered from Matt.24, 1 Thess.4 & 5, 2 Pet.3:10, and Rev.16 gives us that timing which makes perfect sense. It's men's doctrine of a pre-trib rapture that does not agree with the Scriptures.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

 

Don't say that's only about the unbelieving Jews who turn to Christ during the trib either, because these signs Jesus gave here are the signs He gave in His Revelation through John to... the seven Churches.

 

[Salty]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is for those who have put on Jesus Christs righteousness after the Rapture. You guys just can not seem to fathom that people will still get saved after the Rapture, its like a brick wall blinds you from this important truth and you keep banging your head against this wall.

No it isn't. That's a man-made idea dreamed up to try and give support to the false pre-trib rapture theory that began in 1830's Britain by the Irvingites and Brethren movement. The signs of the end Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse is for the faithful of His Church. They are the signs of Revelation 6, that's the order of their flow that He was covering, the very last sign being that of His coming at the end of this world. You've been fed men's lies that go against God's Word and just don't know it yet.

Quote

Herein lies your problem, you do not understand the difference between the Rapture and the Day of the Lord and that is not Gods fault. 

1 Thess. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Paul and Peter are speaking about the Day of Gods Wrath coming upon an unexpectant world. Not the Rapture of the Church per se.[/quote]

I'm not the one with the problem here, because I understand 'perfectly' the events and order of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church, and the reason I do understand is because I listen to my Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word of Truth, and not men's traditions like He warned us against.

You don't even understand the gist of what Peter was saying there, because he like Paul in 1 Thess.5 GAVE the timing of Christ's 2nd coming to gather the Church by that "as a thief" metaphor tied to the "day of the Lord". Jesus said He comes "as a thief", remember? Or did you conveniently forget Rev.16:15 so you could keep your false pre-trib rapture tradition instead?

So since you've just made this 'personal' with your false assumptions against me that you cannot prove, here's a challenge:

WHERE in God's Word is there a DIRECT statement that says Jesus comes to rapture us PRIOR to the great tribulation???

Edited October 22, 2016 by Salty

[Salty]

I still see no one can yet explain how the "asleep" saints are resurrected at the time of a rapture 'prior' to the great tribulation.

If you're thinking to simply post the 1 Thess.4 Scripture as proof of a rapture prior to the tribulation, think again, because it does not support any such idea of being gathered prior to the tribulation. Nor does 1 Thess.5. Nor does any Scripture in Rev.1 through Rev.22. Nor does John 14 with the simple mention of "mansions".

[Salty]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, Revelation Man.

Sorry, but it's STILL ridiculous! ESPECIALLY now! "Israel ... has to become Christians?" THAT'S NONSENSE! Which came first, the set whose members are "Christians" or the set whose members are called "children of Israel?" Who is said to be grafted into whom?!

Secondly, the "saints" are NOT "the Church," ESPECIALLY with a capital "C"! Look again at Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Ephesians to whom Paul was writing) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ (without a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye (still the Ephesians) who sometimes were far off are made nigh (near) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah).
14 For he (the Messiah) is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (two) one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you (the Ephesians) which were afar off, and to them (the commonwealth of Israel) that were nigh (near).
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye (the Gentile Ephesians) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the commonwealth of Israel), and {ye are} of the household (the Mishpachah; the Family) of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (the head stone of the corner; the capstone);
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Who are "the saints?" They are the ones with whom Paul CONTRASTED the Ephesian Gentiles to whom He was writing!

Also, you might consider this passage:

Matthew 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

Tell me: At this point in Yeshua`s life, how many of those who would be called "Christians" were there to come out of the graves?

Who was Moses talking about?

Deuteronomy 33:1-3
1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
KJV

So, when this verse is quoted, directly or indirectly, in the New Testament, to whom do you think it is referring?

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
KJV

Revelation 15:2-3
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
KJV

Now, can Gentile believers become "saints," too? Yes, of course! But, to say that Gentile believers ONLY are the "saints" is bogus.

Their view on the saints is corrupted by the Pre-trib Rapture corruptors also, which is why branches of pre-tribbers have sprung up saying the only NT Scripture applicable to the Church are Paul's Epistles. John Darby (1830's who started the pre-trib rapture theory) also thought up Dispensational theory that tries to keep believers of the seed of Israel separate from Christ's Church.

 

[Salty]

Just now, Salty said:

Their view on the saints is corrupted by the Pre-trib Rapture corruptors also, which is why branches of pre-tribbers have sprung up saying the only NT Scripture applicable to the Church are Paul's Epistles. John Darby (1830's who started the pre-trib rapture theory) also thought up Dispensational theory that tries to keep believers of the seed of Israel separate from the Gentiles of Christ's Church.