Can A Serial Killer Be Saved? Purgatory?

[Mea kakau]

7 hours ago, woundeddog said:

you cant force him to be saved- if the Holy Spirit leads him to repentance it will be genuine

 

That's not what I meant. More along the lines of a psycopath lying. He'd look me straight in the eye and lie to me. Make sense?

I guess though God would be the only one who could see the man's true heart.

[woundeddog]

1 hour ago, Mea kakau said:

More along the lines of a psycopath lying

God can even change the minds of a psychopath

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Mea kakau said:

That's not what I meant. More along the lines of a psycopath lying. He'd look me straight in the eye and lie to me. Make sense?

I guess though God would be the only one who could see the man's true heart.

Shalom, Mea kakau.

Yes, trust is VERY hard to rebuild; so, even if he is being genuine and not lying to you, it may take a while for him to be able to prove to you what God has done in his heart. All you can do is do your part to make it a reality in his life. Then, step aside and pray and let God do the actual work.

God can do amazing things, things we would normally think are impossible to accomplish. Even if the psychopath/narcissist is NEVER able in this life to convince you of what God has done in his heart, just keep trusting in God for the outcome. It's HIS business, after all, and HE makes the decision whether to justify an individual.

Perhaps, this passage can make a difference, although it was written for married couples:

1 Corinthians 7:10-17
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I (Paul), not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified (set apart) by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified (set apart) by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy (set apart).
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
KJV

I believe that the inclusion of the children means that this can apply to any relationship you have with another person. If a person is important to you and you pray for that individual, God will know and it may ease the transition from a sinner to a born-again believer.

We are told,

1 John 4:15-21
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect (mature), that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect (mature) love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect (complete) in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
KJV

God cannot deny Himself:

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful (trustworthy; reliable): he cannot deny himself.
KJV

So, if we are so very concerned about a relative, particularly a close family member, I believe that God put that love in your heart for that individual because God also loves that individual THROUGH YOU.

Otherwise, I believe that you would end up forgetting all about that person. Their wellbeing becomes irrelevant to you. That may sound harsh, but the truth is that you'd never notice it! How many people do we pass in the streets and never give them a second thought? Again, cold and harsh, I know. That's why we try to grow and expand our love to others, witnessing to them and caring for their needs and ultimate wellbeing.

I also believe this is what Yeshua` was saying to Shim`own Kefa (Simon Peter):

Matthew 16:15-19
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ (the Messiah), the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
KJV

The Greek word "ho" (neuter of "hos") can mean "who" as well as "what" in "whatsoever":

NT:3739 hos (hos); including feminine hee (hay); and neuter ho (ho); probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article NT:3588); the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that:
KJV - one, (an-, the) other, some, that, what, which, who (-m, -se), etc. See also NT:3757.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, I believe that you can DESIRE a person to be free and PRAY that the person is freed and God will hear your prayers on that person's behalf. You can't "MAKE" God do anything; He will do as He pleases, but I believe that He WANTS that person to be freed more than you do!

Take heart, and trust GOD'S heart!

Edited November 26, 2016 by Retrobyter
correcting my grammar

[Mea kakau]

Thank and bless you Retrobyter and woundeddog, those are words I needed to hear/read. Loved the Bible references. Something to study and read again and again.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Mea kakau

[1to3]

There is a point of no return and that is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit of God.

That is when a person absolutely mocks God in every sense of the word, curses Him to the end of their lives.

That is what sin does, if not attended to and taken away , it can lead a person further and further from God to the point where the person is so far gone, it will have been completely taken over by darkness and will curse God even as it is dying.

 

Yes I believe that God can change whoever sincerely calls upon the name of the Lord for help unto salvation.

I believe that God would have saved even Hitler, had he repented.

But there are certain souls that refuse God, refuse to seek Him, refuse to allow Him to work in their hearts.

 

 

[Openly Curious]

Yes you are making sense.  I also want to point out that the abuse you suffered personally at the hands of your father was none your fault at all.  You were only a child at the time and you did not willingly of your choices participate in your father's sins.  Instead you were forced into those terrible acts in which your father committed trespasses (sins) against you.  You have nothing to feel guilty for or repent of in that realm of things.  Although I know it is extremely hard to separate yourself from what your father was doing to you, because he made you a part of his sins and you where there in the midst of those terrible acts.  But that does not mean you are guilty and bear any of the blame for what your father did to you personally.  Things can get really confusing and it takes time and work so don't give up.

I agree with the others that there is no purgatory (an in between place between heaven and hell). The bible does not teach that no where within it's pages but when a person dies their spirit either goes directly to heaven or to hell.  There body however goes to sleep (or put to rest) in the grave to await the resurrection when our bodies will be united with our spirits again to where we will live forever in a body that will never die.  This is the case for both the unbelievers as well as for the believers.  There is no purgatory (in between place between heaven and hell). 

Wanting your father to find salvation after all he has done, that to me is the grace of God working in your heart.  I imagine those feelings alone are confusing as they change being erradict from day to day.  Seeing your father on one hand and then seeing the serial killer and child abuser on the other and I am sorry you are going through this confusion.

The vilest persons of all in this world can be saved and go to heaven or they can reject God's plan of salvation for them and go to hell.  It take a godly sorrow working in our hearts to bring us to true repentance.  This is not like saying I'm sorry about something and getting up the next day and doing those wrong things you where sorry for all over again for that is not a godly sorrow.

But having a godly sorrow comes from God to where you are so sorry or remorseful for what you did in the eyes of God you repent and then turn away from those previous sin and walk like an entirely different person than you had been in the past as past sins are washed away.   Only God can know for sure if a person truly did repent.  The only thing we have to go by is the fruit a person bares in their every day lives.  If they are a Christian or not a believer as scripture tells us we shall know them by their fruit.  

I don't know if your father found forgiveness in the eyes of God or not, nor am I qualified to judge him either way as I am not around him.  But if a person found forgiveness then you will see the new creature they have become as the old things are passed away and Behold all things are become new.

I encourage you to study your bible and to dig deeper in it.  Knowing scripture can give needed discernment in sorting through what is truth and what is a lie doing away with confusion...hugs

 

 

 

 

[Rare Bird]

Sociopaths, psychopaths (narcissists and borderline personality) are classified as cluster-B personality disorders in which the person lacks the emotional "wiring" to show true empathy. Empathy is necessary for one to be self-reflective and see how they brought pain into another's life, and therefore, highly unlikely, if not impossible, for serial killers (who are commonly in the cluster-B personality disorder spectrum) to repent and be saved. 

They don't see anything wrong with their actions. Ever. This doesn't change as they are wired this way, usually do to attachment, abandonment or neglect during infancy >> childhood, where personality (and disorders) develop.

[Mea kakau]

On 11/28/2016 at 1:50 PM, Rare Bird said:

Sociopaths, psychopaths (narcissists and borderline personality) are classified as cluster-B personality disorders in which the person lacks the emotional "wiring" to show true empathy. Empathy is necessary for one to be self-reflective and see how they brought pain into another's life, and therefore, highly unlikely, if not impossible, for serial killers (who are commonly in the cluster-B personality disorder spectrum) to repent and be saved. 

They don't see anything wrong with their actions. Ever. This doesn't change as they are wired this way, usually do to attachment, abandonment or neglect during infancy >> childhood, where personality (and disorders) develop.

Thank you Rare Bird. This is my line of thinking too.

I know my father as well. Though he hasn't had a formal diagnosis from a psychiatrist, doubt if he'd ever go to one either because there's nothing wrong with him, my therapists have confirmed that he is a psychopath.

And this is why I wonder whether he can surrender to the Lord. I seriously doubt it. It wouldn't be a genuine repentance because he never once had remorse or empathy for anything he did to me or others.

And not every serial killer is a psychopath.

Though I'd love for my father to come to the Lord. I just don't think it's possible for him.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Mea kakau

[Willa]

Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit in one's heart.  (I worked with a kid who had no sense of right and wrong, and no empathy so I do understand).  And what is impossible with man is possible with God.  God can reveal to him his sin and show him to turn from that life and to receive God's forgiveness and help to do good.   But I do believe the fruit of that would probably be to want to make things right in some way.  It may be to cooperate fully with law enforcement to expose the sex trafficking.  It may be something entirely different.  But God will also reveal to him that Jesus is His Son who died for him on the cross.  And he will confess what he knows.  He will probably hunger to hear or read the New Testament.  He may even request baptism.  These are part of the baby steps that usually follow repentance.  There will be a visible change in attitude toward his sin.  He will no longer boast of it but will be ashamed of it, and  he will wish he had come to know God long ago.  

[Mea kakau]

On 11/28/2016 at 10:51 AM, Openly Curious said:

Yes you are making sense.  I also want to point out that the abuse you suffered personally at the hands of your father was none your fault at all.  You were only a child at the time and you did not willingly of your choices participate in your father's sins.  Instead you were forced into those terrible acts in which your father committed trespasses (sins) against you.  You have nothing to feel guilty for or repent of in that realm of things.  Although I know it is extremely hard to separate yourself from what your father was doing to you, because he made you a part of his sins and you where there in the midst of those terrible acts.  But that does not mean you are guilty and bear any of the blame for what your father did to you personally.  Things can get really confusing and it takes time and work so don't give up.

I agree with the others that there is no purgatory (an in between place between heaven and hell). The bible does not teach that no where within it's pages but when a person dies their spirit either goes directly to heaven or to hell.  There body however goes to sleep (or put to rest) in the grave to await the resurrection when our bodies will be united with our spirits again to where we will live forever in a body that will never die.  This is the case for both the unbelievers as well as for the believers.  There is no purgatory (in between place between heaven and hell). 

Wanting your father to find salvation after all he has done, that to me is the grace of God working in your heart.  I imagine those feelings alone are confusing as they change being erratic from day to day.  Seeing your father on one hand and then seeing the serial killer and child abuser on the other and I am sorry you are going through this confusion.

The vilest persons of all in this world can be saved and go to heaven or they can reject God's plan of salvation for them and go to hell.  It take a godly sorrow working in our hearts to bring us to true repentance.  This is not like saying I'm sorry about something and getting up the next day and doing those wrong things you where sorry for all over again for that is not a godly sorrow.

But having a godly sorrow comes from God to where you are so sorry or remorseful for what you did in the eyes of God you repent and then turn away from those previous sin and walk like an entirely different person than you had been in the past as past sins are washed away.   Only God can know for sure if a person truly did repent.  The only thing we have to go by is the fruit a person bares in their every day lives.  If they are a Christian or not a believer as scripture tells us we shall know them by their fruit.  

I don't know if your father found forgiveness in the eyes of God or not, nor am I qualified to judge him either way as I am not around him.  But if a person found forgiveness then you will see the new creature they have become as the old things are passed away and Behold all things are become new.

I encourage you to study your bible and to dig deeper in it.  Knowing scripture can give needed discernment in sorting through what is truth and what is a lie doing away with confusion...hugs

Thank you Openly Curious.

After purchasing my newest Bible I realized why I liked the other I had. It's an inductive study Bible. I'll have to literally dig my other one out from under my monitor. It never elevated it enough anyhow.