disproving evolution in 5 minutes or less

[one.opinion]

27 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

It doesn't prove your point, it assumes your point. Not what I was looking for. 

I cannot prove to you that gene families arise by duplication and divergence because these events take millennia. All I can do is provide evidence that supports this hypothesis. I realize that iron-clad "proof" would be desirable, but all we can do is look at the evidence and form hypotheses that are most consistent with the available data. If you want more detailed evidence supporting this hypothesis, then I suggest going to Google Scholar and searching for " origin "gene family" ". That will give you plenty of reading material, include multiple open access articles.

[The Barbarian]

The fact that the evidence indicates gene duplication is a common way that new genes form is sufficient to refute the argument that it could not happen.   Since we directly observe evolution, including the mutation of new alleles and gene duplication, and since genetic data, transitional fossils, and biochemistry all support evolution and common descent, the onus is on the skeptic to prove it can't happen.

 

[Debp]

6 hours ago, JTC said:

I've had people my age disagree, but I don't think we have to disprove evolution simply because it was never proven. I must have been among the last students in HS and collage to be taught evolution is a theory and concrete proof was never found. The theory has many holes in it, or missing links. I learned this in the late 60's & early 70's. The fact is the more advanced science becomes the more missing links we find. We Christians know what's going on. 1. The idea of evolution is used to deny God (and to claim sin is just fine). 2. At this point, 2019, if the scientific community was to admit that evolution is not a fact, hundreds of thousands of people will be fired, some of whom have PhD's; and then millions or billions of dollars will be lost. Every museum of natural history will need major renovations along with millions of books, CD's, DVD's etc. will have to be trashed & remade. And since the atheists run the world this lie goes on and on.

   How can you disprove something that was never proven in the first place? There's even ample evidence to prove evolution wasn't proven, but the people in power, either squelch it or ignore it.

   However, with God's help you young folks may prove evolution is a failed theory and always was. It is not a fact nor was it ever a fact. 

Good points.   I've  also heard that only evolutionists are hired at the universities!   So, of course, they churn out more evolutionists.

A good site is http://www.icr.org (Scientific articles and videos by creationist scientists.)

Edited October 14, 2019 by Debp

[The Barbarian]

7 hours ago, JTC said:

I've had people my age disagree, but I don't think we have to disprove evolution simply because it was never proven. I must have been among the last students in HS and collage to be taught evolution is a theory and concrete proof was never found. The theory has many holes in it, or missing links. I learned this in the late 60's & early 70's. The fact is the more advanced science becomes the more missing links we find. We Christians know what's going on. 1. The idea of evolution is used to deny God (and to claim sin is just fine). 2. At this point, 2019, if the scientific community was to admit that evolution is not a fact, hundreds of thousands of people will be fired, some of whom have PhD's; and then millions or billions of dollars will be lost. Every museum of natural history will need major renovations along with millions of books, CD's, DVD's etc. will have to be trashed & remade. And since the atheists run the world this lie goes on and on.

   How can you disprove something that was never proven in the first place? There's even ample evidence to prove evolution wasn't proven, but the people in power, either squelch it or ignore it.

   However, with God's help you young folks may prove evolution is a failed theory and always was. It is not a fact nor was it ever a fact. 

Evolution is directly observed daily.   Perhaps you don't know what evolution is.  It is defined as a change in allele frequency in a population over time.  We not only see that, but occasionally we see the evolution of new species.  Even many creationist organizations admit new species, genera, and even families.  There is often confusion between evolution (which is observed) and the theory (which explains the phenomena).    I find that most creationists, when they learn what evolution is, find that they agree with it, while they may still disagree with the agencies of evolution (such as natural selection or increased fitness) or with consequences of evolution (like common descent).

Of course, no one who understands the theory supposes that it's to deny God.   Darwin, for example, suggested in the last sentence of On the Origin of Species that God created  the first living things.   The reason so many scientists, including many, many Christians, accept evolutionary theory is the remarkable number of predictions of the theory that have since been confirmed.   Would you like to learn about some of them?

 

 

[The Barbarian]

36 minutes ago, Debp said:

Good points.   I've  also heard that only evolutionists are hired at the universities!   So, of course, they churn out more evolutionists.

No, that's a common superstition, but it's false.  Stephen Gould, for example, took on a YE creationist as a PhD candidate.    As Gould remarked later, "all that really matters is ability."  I took my first work in immunology from a tenured professor who was a young Earth creationist.

 

[JTC]

4 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

Perhaps you don't know what evolution is.

Since I went to school 40 to 50 yrs ago I'm sure I don't know what you know. I will probably phrase this differently than you would. I know that evolution within a species is true. I don't believe any undeniable evidence has ever been found to prove 1 species changes into another. That means I don't believe man came apes, much less any sea animals......................... However, I do believe staunch evolutionists have falsified data to make this appear to be true.

   It is all about denying God. First they deny God created man, and all that exists, in any way close to scripture. Once you start to disbelieve God on 1 thing it's not long before you doubt Him on other things. Then a person tries to be a Christian who bases his beliefs on his own ideas, not the Word of God.   

  Then New Age ideas come in, and in the worst cases people call themselves New Age Christians.

  No Thanks.

[Debp]

13 minutes ago, JTC said:

I know that evolution within a species is true. I don't believe any undeniable evidence has ever been found to prove 1 species changes into another. That means I don't believe man came apes, much less any sea animals

I agree.  Evolution within a species is called adaptation.   So God created a species, but that species adapted through the years.

[The Barbarian]

2 hours ago, JTC said:

Since I went to school 40 to 50 yrs ago

Me too.

2 hours ago, JTC said:

I'm sure I don't know what you know.

I kept on learning.   It's a good idea.

2 hours ago, JTC said:

I will probably phrase this differently than you would. I know that evolution within a species is true. I don't believe any undeniable evidence has ever been found to prove 1 species changes into another.

Most creationist organizations now admit the fact of speciation.    Many acknowledge the evolution of higher taxa like genera and families.   (but they don't use "evolution" because it's politically incorrect)

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time. The biodiversity represented in the 8.7 million or so species in the world is a testament, not to random chance processes, but to the genetic variability and potential for diversification within the created kinds.

Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/speciation/

They generally don't tell the faithful this, until later.   Note also that AIG admits that the process isn't random, as Darwin first discovered.   The physical laws of this world were laid down by God; is it any surprise that they work to His purposes?

2 hours ago, JTC said:

I don't believe any undeniable evidence has ever been found to prove 1 species changes into another. That means I don't believe man came apes, much less any sea animals......................... However, I do believe staunch evolutionists have falsified data to make this appear to be true.

No, that's wrong.   Professional creationists are very aware of new species evolving.    The Institute for Creation Research advocates John Woodmorappe's Noah's Ark; a Feasibility Study, which argues that new species, genera, and families evolved after the Flood.    The evidence isn't faked; it's merely the way God made the world to work.   And it's entirely consistent with His word in Scripture.    Young Earth creationism is a very modern revision of scripture, invented by the 7th Day Adventists in the 20th century.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by The Barbarian

[The Barbarian]

Dr. Miller was kind enough to drop in on a department meeting in my school some years ago; he's a very pleasant and well-informed guy.   Enjoyed listening to him.

 

[ARGOSY]

1 hour ago, The Barbarian said:

Me too.

I kept on learning.   It's a good idea.

Most creationist organizations now admit the fact of speciation.    Many acknowledge the evolution of higher taxa like genera and families.   (but they don't use "evolution" because it's politically incorrect)

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time. The biodiversity represented in the 8.7 million or so species in the world is a testament, not to random chance processes, but to the genetic variability and potential for diversification within the created kinds.

Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/speciation/

They generally don't tell the faithful this, until later.   Note also that AIG admits that the process isn't random, as Darwin first discovered.   The physical laws of this world were laid down by God; is it any surprise that they work to His purposes?

No, that's wrong.   Professional creationists are very aware of new species evolving.    The Institute for Creation Research advocates John Woodmorappe's Noah's Ark; a Feasibility Study, which argues that new species, genera, and families evolved after the Flood.    The evidence isn't faked; it's merely the way God made the world to work.   And it's entirely consistent with His word in Scripture.    Young Earth creationism is a very modern revision of scripture, invented by the 7th Day Adventists in the 20th century.

 

 

I personally have always agreed that organisms can evolve and there's speciation within clades. I also now agree that new novel genes can evolve.

In some ways, then I am an evolutionist. My only gripe with the TOE is that both the fossil record and the Bible indicate that this planet was seeded with multiple fully formed life forms, rather than just one original life form. 

These multiple created organisms have then evolved within their own clades.