LOT AND HIS TWO DAUGHTERS

[other one]

I say it was Lot's willingness to sacrifice things dear to him to protect these two travelers who came to him.

 

As to his having children through his daughters one would have to check with God on that part.....    I would have to check to be sure but the first time I remember it being spoken of in the Bible is in Leviticus 18:6  and this was when the law was being given to the Nation of Israel.  Prior to that I would have to consult God about it.

[Churchmouse]

1 hour ago, HisFirst said:

Could it be also a reaction on Lots part after many years of living in a depraved society and having part of that mindset and "culture"  rubbing off on him ?  Hence the offering his daughters to the men and also the episode later with the daughters' decision about bearing children (sired by Lot).

I don't think God would have allowed Lot and his family to leave if that was the case. The destruction of those two cites were for the whickidness within them and I don't think it was a issue of degree, but the saturation within the society there.

There are many cases in the Bible about the duty of family members to extend the seed of other family members.  One particular case was in Genesis 38:7-26:
 

Quote

 

7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.

8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10 And the thing which he did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also.

11 Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house.

12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.

13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.

14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.

15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.

16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?

17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?

18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.

19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.

20 And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not.

21 Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.

22 And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place.

23 And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.

24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.

25 When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.

26 And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

 

 

[kwikphilly]

Quote

I believe it was the angels that protected themselves that day.                                                                         other one

Oh yes,no harm would have come to them anyway as we see they were actually there to protect Lot & his family from the coming destruction ,they were sent by God to destroy the city ......We don't know if it was apparent to Lot at first that these men were Angels of God but as was their Customs ,like a code of HONOR to protect & provide for the stranger,guest,traveler etc.....it was of the utmost importance to be responsible(& accountable) for their safety and security......to hand these men over to the wicked doers for evil,perverted intentions would have been a horrible betrayal,much worse than that of his own household,,,,,,hospitality customs were regarded sacred,vital part of their culture & very hard for us to understand because it is so very different from what we know.....Lot did exactly what he would have been expected to do

[warrior12]

9 hours ago, Yowm said:

Again, man was created in God's image not the animals. Many things animals do instinctively, man does not do.

Lot was considered righteous because  he believed the promise given to Abraham. We are (reckoned) righteous when we believe in Jesus also, but that does not mean all our actions are righteous. Lot allowed his daughters to get him drunk...not the best move of a 'righteous' man. Gen 19:31-36

Every mother that has given birth wants to see their newborn and cuddle and have some kind of bonding, so i have been told as i am male.  It is not that i am putting man in the same category as animals, but man do love and care for their offspring which is of he majority of all mankind.    Lot allowed his daughters to get him drunk, and what again, caused what incest.  The plot was hatched by his daughters and they said why, it was their doing.  Lot getting drunk could have been for a number of reasons, after all , his wife just turned into salt, he saw an entire city destroyed by the hand of God and who knows what again was going through his mind.   The bible does say that he unknowingly slept with his daughters, it was not a willful act, even though it was heinous and abominable act.

8 hours ago, Openly Curious said:

The the two strangers that Lot was protecting were actually angels of God that had been sent to the city.  It was better in the eyes of God that a natural relationship would take place between Lot's daughter's and the men, than for an unatural relationship to take place between the angels of God and the men.  Remember Genesis 6.  The men wanted to literally abuse the angels of God all that night but Lot protected them from that unholy union.  

This is sort of my opinion too, but with some difference.  Though the bible does not say this, I think LOT knew that these were angels and that he was entertaining angels.   Maybe it was God way of testing LOT as to his obedience and faithfulness to him.  Angels are heavenly creations and his daughters, even though he loved them dearly, he had to make the choice of sacrifice,by the willingness to give up his daugherts for heavenly duty. like the choice Abraham had to make.  The outcome, we see was that his daughters were not allowed to go through that torment and his faithfulness was proven.   

There are many unknowns in this scene of LOT in Sodom, and this discussion is good to bring out our held or unspoken thoughts to light here.  Let it continue with this in mind.  conjecture without hard facts is still what it is, we have to keep that in mind, but still show our thoughts without animosity.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Davida

    Well Sis,the thing is we just don't know what Lot knew when the 2 sojourners arrived at his door.....though he bowed down & addressed them as "my lords"....in the Hebrew I believe it is implied that he did "see" with discernment,however......because of the customs of those ancient times it would have been just as important to protect these "2" even if they were merely mortal men

   I don't believe that God tests "Faithfulness" in the way we may think He does or for the reasons we understand,God already knows what we will do & it comes as no surprise to Him when aour choices are not what they should be,I think these sort  of things happens because God does know our Faithfulness & He can entrust us with the task at hand.....that is my perception from so many of my own personal experiences,I am just Humbled when given the opportunity to step up to the plate (simply because of Gods Blessed Assurance that we are ABLE),as Lot did & I don't believe there could have been any other outcome

   God is the Orchestrator,we each play a part in His Grand Plan & each have a Purpose in it,He takes very ordinary people to do extraordinary things that Glorify Him & Him Alone!!!                                                                                                                         With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Dennis1209]

There's much debate between scholars on, if and when, Lot realized the two were angels. Why would Lot have offered up his two daughters if he had know they were the angels of the Lord at the time?

Remember Lot was a backslider living in town and participating with the affairs of the Sodomites. Evidently he was a politician and held a position akin to an Alderman, customs agent or Mayor. It would be my guess he didn't know they were angels and felt responsible for their safety and well being, personally and as a political official. Perhaps Lot knew the Sodomites would not take him up on his offer and it was a political maneuver to distract and calm them? 

Why did Lot tarry and linger so long and not want to leave if he knew they were actual Angels sent from God? It cost him his two son-in-laws and his wife either because of disbelief or disobedience. 

[soonsister]

15 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Genesis 19King James Version (KJV)

⁸ Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Lot, Abraham nephew.  I have heard numerous sermons and read articles condemning Lot in the most vilifying  and humiliating ways as to the scripture verse above.  

My question.  What do you think ?.  Was Lot a man who willing wanted to give up  his daughters up to be gang raped by the sodomites to protect two strangers he did not know or was he trying to just ease the tensions, calm things down and let his guest be unharmed.    Or do you have a different view of how you may interpret what took place there. ? 

I have a problem thinking Lot was a righteous man when he'd actually make that offer of his virgin daughters to be gang raped by sodomites.Being the OT expresses what is to be done to a woman that is raped,and her rapist , it puts Lot in a really bad light. Further, why would Lot think homosexual men would accept virgin girls as their sex slaves for a gang rape?Or, that it would be an acceptable offering by Lot to condemned sinners in the  eyes of God's emissaries that were guests in Lot's house.

In my opinion, Lot demonstrated he was unqualified to be deemed righteous the moment he did that. And yet, God let he and his family live to flee Sodom and Gomorrah. Well, not the wife because she looked back when she wasn't suppose to and died there. Either way,it's a detestable offering on Lot's part. Knowing he had angels in his home why wouldn't he just trust God to save his family from the wolves at his door? Why would he instead offer his pure lambs to satiate their hunger?

 

But the same profile of righteousness puts Noah into question doesn't it? He was an alcoholic and many other things. And yet he was picked by God to save his own family from the deluge, and all living things,that was to befall because humanity was as bad as or worse than he himself.

It's a wonder isn't it?

 

[soonsister]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

There's much debate between scholars on, if and when, Lot realized the two were angels. Why would Lot have offered up his two daughters if he had know they were the angels of the Lord at the time?

Remember Lot was a backslider living in town and participating with the affairs of the Sodomites. Evidently he was a politician and held a position akin to an Alderman, customs agent or Mayor. It would be my guess he didn't know they were angels and felt responsible for their safety and well being, personally and as a political official. Perhaps Lot knew the Sodomites would not take him up on his offer and it was a political maneuver to distract and calm them? 

Why did Lot tarry and linger so long and not want to leave if he knew they were actual Angels sent from God? It cost him his two son-in-laws and his wife either because of disbelief or disobedience. 

How would there be debate really? Genesis 19 has Lot greeting the angels with a bow to the ground and the salutation, "my lords".

That evening the two angels came to the entrance of the city of Sodom. Lot was sitting there, and when he saw them, he stood up to meet them. Then he welcomed them and bowed with his face to the ground. 2“My lords,” he said, “come to my home to wash your feet, and be my guests for the night. You may then get up early in the morning and be on your way again.”

[missmuffet]

Question: "Why did Lot offer up his daughters to be gang raped? Why did God allow Lot's daughters to later have sex with their father?"

Answer: The first incident involving Lot’s daughters appears in Genesis 19:1–11. Two men who were really angels appeared in Sodom where Lot lived with his family. The wicked men of the city surrounded Lot’s house seeking to have homosexual relations with the angels. Lot begged the men of the city not to do this evil thing, and he offered up his two virgin daughters to them instead.

The second incident (Genesis 19:30–38) occurs after Lot and his daughters had fled Sodom just before its destruction. Lot’s wife was destroyed for her disobedience during the journey, and Lot and his two daughters fled to live in a cave in a mountain. Afraid they would never have husbands or children in their hideout, Lot’s daughters plotted to make their father drunk so they could sleep with him and thereby assure that they would have children.

To our modern sensibilities, it’s hard to understand why God would allow these two terrible incidents to occur. We are told in 1 Corinthians 10:11 that the record of the Old Testament is for an “example” to us. In other words, God gives us the whole truth about biblical characters, their sin, their failures, their victories and good deeds, and we are to learn from their example, what to do and what not to do. In fact, this is one of the ways God teaches us what we need to know in order to make good choices as believers. We can learn the easy way by knowing and obeying God’s Word, we can learn the hard way by suffering the consequences of our mistakes, or we can learn by watching others and “taking heed” from their experiences.

Scripture does not reveal Lot’s reasoning for offering up his daughters. Whatever his thought process was, it was wrong and indefensible. Based on what is revealed about Lot’s life, one might wonder if he was righteous. However, there is no doubt that God had declared him to be positionally righteous, even during his time in Sodom. “And if God rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds)” (2 Peter 2:7–8). At some point Lot had believed in the coming Messiah, and that faith resulted in a righteous standing before God. It is likely that Lot’s uncle, Abraham, had passed this truth down to him.

What we have in the story of Lot is an illustration of a man who once lived close to his godly relatives and had backslidden and was living according to his sin nature. Lot had moved to Sodom, even though he knew what it was, and he “sat in the gate” (Genesis 19:1). That sounds quite simple, but, in fact, sitting in the gate meant that Lot had so entered into the society of Sodom that he was a judge there (Genesis 19:9). In spite of his position, the men of Sodom had no respect for him because they knew he was a hypocrite.

We may sit in judgment of the culture of that day, but protecting one’s guests required great sacrifice. Was Lot right to offer his own daughters in place of the men the Sodomites wanted? No. We can see in the story that the Lord’s messengers protected Lot and his daughters in spite of Lot’s lack of character and worldly viewpoint. Lot meant to appease the men of Sodom so that the hospitality of his house would not be damaged, but he makes the wrong choice in offering his own daughters, and God’s messengers overruled him.

Genesis 19:31–32 tells us that Lot’s daughters believed there would be no man for them and no children. This may be because they saw the destruction of Sodom and believed they were the only people left on earth. They were trying to preserve the family line. Why did Lot have sex with his own daughters? He got drunk. Yes, his daughters conspired to get him drunk, but Lot willingly drank and, when he was drunk, he lost what little control and common sense he had (Genesis 19:30–38), and this is the final step in Lot’s backsliding. The lesson can we learn from this is, when a person has too much to drink, he does not make good choices and loses control of his morals and operates out of the sinful, carnal nature. As a result of the incest, two children were born, and those two children are the fathers of two nations that have been at odds with and the source of much suffering to Israel down through history.

Why did God allow Lot to offer his daughters, and why did He allow them to commit incest? Sometimes God gives us His reasons for doing something but not very often. The more we get to know God, the more we understand Him and His reasons for doing things. But, again, this doesn’t always happen. We must be very careful when we ask why God does something and be sure we are not calling into question God Himself, His judgment, His character, and His very nature.

The psalmist tells us, “As for God, His way is perfect” (Psalm 18:30). If God’s ways are “perfect,” then we can trust that whatever He does—and the reason for whatever He allows—is also perfect. This may not seem possible to us, but our minds are not God’s mind. It is true that we can’t expect to understand His mind perfectly, as He reminds us, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8–9). Nevertheless, our responsibility to God is to obey Him, to trust Him, and to submit to His will, whether we understand it or not.

Lot did the things he did because he chose to live in his old sin nature and do what was easy, and he made choices to flirt with evil instead of living to honor God. As a result, there was suffering for Lot, his wife and daughters, and, by association, the nation of Israel for years to come. The lesson for us is that we need to make choices that do not conform to the world and to submit to the Word of God, which will guide us into living lives that are pleasing to God.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Lots-daughters.html

[kwikphilly]

Well,it seems that Lot could not convince his sons in law he was serious.....

Quote

¹⁴ And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.                               Genesis 19th Chapter

So,the next morning he lingered before the Angels hastened him......perhaps he was hoping to convince the 2 sons in law or the family was procrastinating ,we don't really know? In any event,Lot went and was spared....the Angel even granted his request to flee to a nearby little town instead of the mountains(Zoar)      There was not disobedience or disbelief from LOt,his wife however,well-a pillar of salt was what became of her for looking back when told not to do such a thing....

The wicked men of the city were not homosexuals,there is nothing  in Scripture to lead us to believe that.....they were a perverted bunch which did abominable things in the sight of our Lord,which included sexual perversions of all sorts........they lusted after the flesh,I'm sure ANY flesh would do

Again,there has to be an understanding of ancient Hebrew customs,all the customs & traditions in the middle east come into play to truly grasp & understand why this is so significant....the most brilliant bible scholars have argued whether or not Lot had discernment of the 2 men being Angels,it is irrelevent imo because of the code of honor I explained earlier considering the welfare of guests ,a HUGE responsibility not to be taken lightly