"All Believers Taken" In The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching!

[iamlamad]

13 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Oh yeah, a new class of people never mentioned in the Bible - "tribulation saints".  Uh-huh.  Yeah, right.  No, I don't believe you or your take on this.

Revelation 9:20

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

 

Revelation 9:21

Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

Does it seem possible to you that God WANTED men to repent here? Is it remotely possible that some DID repent?

 

What of the one third of the Jews that will make it through and become a part of the Millenial kingdom? Would they not be considered "saints?" What of the 144,000 that turn to Jesus? Would they not be considered "saints?"

 

The truth is then, they ARE mentioned in the bible. You have just not seen them as "saints."

Edited June 7, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Is this more prophecy from you?

Why don't we all become like children and just say it will all pan out in the end and become Pan-Millennials instead.

It would be good to study the scriptures, while praying in the Spirit, and discover the real intent of the Author.  The truth is, it WILL NOT turn out good for those left behind. They will have to make some very hard decisions.

[iamlamad]

20 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

But Jesus is not talking to the "Jews" - the religious authorities of that time.

Jesus is speaking to the Church.

This discourse, is the fifth and final discourse of Matthew, who centers his Gospel around those discourses.  All of them are relevant to us.

We have a deep difference in opinion.

Yours is necessitated by your eschatology.

My point is, they were NOT "the church" at that time.  They would start "the church" after Jesus ascended for the first time, then met them in His resurrection body.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I disagree, and I will continue to disagree with you.

We're kind-of done here 'I am Lamad'.

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

But Jesus is not talking to the "Jews" - the religious authorities of that time.

Jesus is speaking to the Church.

This discourse, is the fifth and final discourse of Matthew, who centers his Gospel around those discourses.  All of them are relevant to us.

We have a deep difference in opinion.

Yours is necessitated by your eschatology.

Shalom, Marcus.

You're forgetting the Jewish roots of the "Church." Yeshua` WAS talking to Jews! LITERALLY! He was not talking to the "religious authorities," but He was talking to a people who were mostly from the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah)!

One's eschatology is driven by what he or she finds in the Gospels and prophecy, and one SHOULD be able to recognize the culture and the religious beliefs of the people to whom Yeshua` was sent. Without that background, one is BOUND to make mistakes in his or her eschatology.

Therefore, the Olivet Discourse, the Explanation and Prophecy that Yeshua` presented to His disciples - His students, was primarily centered on the Jewish people - not the "Jewish religion" of His day, but the children of Israel to whom He was sent. Jerusalem, since the time of King David, has been not only the capital of the country Israel, but the capital of the tribe of Y'hudah! It is the city of the King, and the King reigns from Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). This was true for David and Shlomoh (Solomon), and it will be true also for Yeshua` when He returns.

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

This is an important prophecy about the Messiah that one should remember and keep in the forefront of one's thinking when exploring issues of prophecy. The messenger's words are a condensed version of the prophecies in the TANAKH (the OT), and God's Word does not change, regardless how human beings react to it. His prophecies may be POSTPONED, but they are not changed. (That's the failure of those who believe in Supercessionism.)

The Olivet Discourse was primarily directed to the children of Israel who first formed the "church," but the points Yeshua` made were made to THEM! THEY were the ones to see the fall of the Temple, when the Temple was burned and the stones pulled apart to get at the gold that melted between those stones.

THEY were to ones to see the terrible pressure put upon their people when the persecutions began!

THEY were the ones to be betrayed and brought up for punishment and even death by their own family members.

THEY were the ones fooled (if possible) by the false Messiahs and their forerunners, false prophets, who supported these false Messiahs.

While it is true that the ones to whom Yeshua` the Messiah was talking were those who formed the early "church" or "called-out gathering," it is also true that they were children of Israel who had a part in the prophecies made to that people! That is CRUCIAL to understand if one is to understand the prophecies that Yeshua` made in the Olivet Discourse.

Therefore, one should conclude that most of the prophecies that Yeshua` made were made regarding the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. and the persecutions that were to follow in the early centuries A.D. But, not all. I must also qualify that some of His prophecies would NOT take place until He was to return; therefore, I am not entirely proposing a preterist view, but much of them SHOULD be taken to be "already fulfilled."

Thus, the question is, "Which ones are which?"

I believe that, first, we need to harmonize the three versions of the Olivet Discourse to get all the information that the three Evangelists saw in the event and that this harmony needs to be seen FIRST in the Greek language and THEN the composite harmony translated into English.

Second, we need to look at the PRONOUNS which were the direct references to the disciples sitting and standing right there in front of Him on that mountain top. The pronouns and the number and person of the verbs are KEY to understanding the prophecies. When Yeshua` is talking to the disciples right there in front of Him, He is describing near events to happen. When He allows His pronouns to change where He is talking about generations in the future, then He is describing events that will happen after MUCH time has passed.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Ah no.

[Pudgenik]

On Wednesday, January 25, 2017 at 8:54 PM, Lawlord said:

Greetings,

I have made a 12 minute video discussing this topic. It is part of my 5 part end times summary videos. I cannot post links but it is on my youtube channel godlord21 titled: "The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a False Teaching! BE WARNED!"

I believe the pre-tribulation rapture is not borne out by the Word of God. I feel it ignores the scripture showing us that we will suffer and be hated in these times, war will be made against us, we will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of our word etc. I feel like the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is contributing to lack of preparedness and the falling away in the body of Christ, when the faith of many will fail under persecution and difficulty as they thought they would never suffer. 

In this video I display onscreen all of the Word of God I rely on in my interpretation as I discuss this topic, so please read the information in the video as well.

You are welcome to disagree, and have your own interpretations. I am open to discussion and consideration of others points of view and opinions, however, I feel a lot of scripture must be ignored or distorted to accept the belief of the pre-tribulation rapture.

We are told those who are in the light will not be taken as a thief, they will not be sleeping but being awake and aware of the signs (1 Thes 5:1-8). I see the many signs of the impending judgment of the Lord upon the earth.

The Word tells us of the saints suffering under persecution, being hated by all nations, delivered up to death by their families, killed during the first four seals, made war against by the beast, the dragon, the false-prophet, and their blood found in Babylon (Babylon destroyed Rev 18). I cannot rectify these many areas of the Word of God with the belief that all believers will be taken before the tribulation. We are told that not all who say they are believers are true believers (Matthew 7:21-23), we are told the day of the Lord will not come before an apostasy/falling away and the man of sin exalting himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 

Anyway, you are welcome to consider my video. You can read the video description under the video to get a good summary of my main contention here. 

I have made this video and other videos on my channel because I felt a lot of the Word of God was being ignored. I am moving according to my feelings and drivings of my spirit. Again you are welcome to have your own opinions/interpretations, I am open to discussion on these topics.

Kind Regards, Christopher

It is even more insidious than you fear. The pre trib rapture theroy has caught more than 60% of christains world wide. 

Have you ever wondered how a world of 60 billion christains could go from hot to anti christain in short order?

How the anti christ can bring the slaughter of millions of Christians and the whole world against us almost over night. 

When the Great Day comes, and it isn't to far off now, the breaking of the six seal.

There will be a sea change against Christians in general. 

The great escape will not happen they think.

[Pudgenik]

On Wednesday, January 25, 2017 at 9:29 PM, Keras said:

Excellent video, Christopher. You are a man who says it like it is, expect abuse and hatred from those whose precious beliefs are challenged.

There is no 'escape' to heaven when God sends His wrath, but you correctly say we will be protected, that is all who do what we have been told to do: Call upon the Name of the Lord. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21 Then, not all Christians will experience the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, as all the faithful ones will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days of the G.T. Revelation 12:14

Many Christians will be killed in a terrible slaughter. You will feel fear, my friend. But you will find strength with friends. 

Here is a secret, the Two Witnesses are here, just hidden for now

[MorningGlory]

20 minutes ago, Pudgenik said:

It is even more insidious than you fear. The pre trib rapture theroy has caught more than 60% of christains world wide. 

Have you ever wondered how a world of 60 billion christains could go from hot to anti christain in short order?

How the anti christ can bring the slaughter of millions of Christians and the whole world against us almost over night. 

When the Great Day comes, and it isn't to far off now, the breaking of the six seal.

There will be a sea change against Christians in general. 

The great escape will not happen they think.

There are only seven billion people on this earth and only 1.8 billion are said to be Christian.  Not sure where you got your figures from.  The 'great escape' is coming indeed.

[Pudgenik]

24 minutes ago, MorningGlory said:

There are only seven billion people on this earth and only 1.8 billion are said to be Christian.  Not sure where you got your figures from.  The 'great escape' is coming indeed.

Sorry i meant  million. Only if you are humble of heart