Do you have to be pure in doctrine to be saved ?

[Guest Teditis]

11 hours ago, Spock said:

Ted,

im hoping this is how God sees them- full of a lot of bad doctrine and useless traditions but they promote the gospel through the Nicene Creed, etc.

As a side note, I remember reading and arguing with my brother regarding their Catechism that says GOOD Muslims can inherit eternal life too. Really!

Stuff like this makes you shake your head and really Wonder who is running this organization? How could they say anyone who doesn't have a proper belief in Christ can be saved?  I'd like to hear your answer on this one. 

This is a puzzlement to me as well, Spock.

It seems that many of (what used to be) main-line Churches have adopted a form of Relativism in their practices...

adapting to modern social norms and customs. And they do that while Scripture strictly tells us not to do that. Still...

they preach the basic Gospel and so I'm left confused by it all rather than enlightened in any way. Many times I've

heard from catholic (small "c") pulpits, that our faith is demonstrated through our actions.... that it's "lived, not

merely learned."

But when it comes to people of other faiths inheriting eternal life, I just can't see that happening without them

turning from false Gospels and turning their lives over to Jesus.

[No124get1952]

Thank God that we DO NOT have to have our doctrine straight before we get saved. Jesus died for me when I was a sinner. His blood washed away all my sins and set me free from death. If I had to go through a doctrinal indoctrination PRIOR TO getting saved, I am not sure I ever would have.

Besides, which doctrine would I have had to get right before being saved? Reformed? Orthodox? Catholic? Hebrew? A doctrine is a man-made structure upon which rules of belief and interpretation are hung so that it it easier to indoctrinate those new to the faith. At some point, all doctrines include something that is NOT strictly the word of God. And at that point, doctrines become pretty much useless.

I have a question for you. How many times did Jesus use the word "doctrine"?

[Spock]

21 minutes ago, No124get1952 said:

Thank God that we DO NOT have to have our doctrine straight before we get saved. Jesus died for me when I was a sinner. His blood washed away all my sins and set me free from death. If I had to go through a doctrinal indoctrination PRIOR TO getting saved, I am not sure I ever would have.

Besides, which doctrine would I have had to get right before being saved? Reformed? Orthodox? Catholic? Hebrew? A doctrine is a man-made structure upon which rules of belief and interpretation are hung so that it it easier to indoctrinate those new to the faith. At some point, all doctrines include something that is NOT strictly the word of God. And at that point, doctrines become pretty much useless.

I have a question for you. How many times did Jesus use the word "doctrine"?

Lol, none I suppose. 

Good morning 1952,

Let me know what you think of this reasoning. Typically I would ask someone to determine what they believe, "If God were to ask you why should I allow for you to enter into my Heavenly kingdom?" 

And then I "judge" their answer to determine if they are saved (justified according to the Gospel). 

For example, if they say, "Because I've been a pretty good person and I try to follow all 10 commandments, immediately a red flag goes up, and I now reason that this person probably is not saved and doesn't really know the Gospel message. 

I expect to hear something like this, "because Christ died on the cross and paid the penalty for all of my sins and I believe in Him only, so now when you see me you don't see my sins but the righteousness of Christ."  Or something to that effect. 

Now, let me be practical here, having come from a RCC background, when I was born again, I immediately wanted to share the good news with all my family members. I would ask them about Christ and ultimately I would ask that question to see where they are in their thinking. I kid you not, not one of my relatives (more than 20 I asked) was able to say something similar to "by faith in Christ alone." Every single answer emphasized the person's works and not Christ's. 

So, what conclusion can one draw with that kind of response? I'd love to read your thoughts on everything I said. Thanks.

spock

Edited April 27, 2017 by Spock

[kwikphilly]

Quote

Thank God that we DO NOT have to have our doctrine straight before we get saved. Jesus died for me when I was a sinner. His blood washed away all my sins and set me free from death. If I had to go through a doctrinal indoctrination PRIOR TO getting saved, I am not sure I ever would have.     No124get1952

Amen!!!! Yes,Thank GOD! At age 5,perhaps even earlier,I KNEW my Savior.....maybe even better,closer than this present time.....I was so pure,so innocent & without "doctrine".....Oh,I was SIMPLY madly in love with Jesus & had no doubt that He DIED for ME.......as I went on to learn many things,false doctrines things got fuzzy & hindered the purity of that little child/Jesus RElationship......I suppose I'm rambling,sorry       Anyway,it took so many years to put away "doctrines of MAN" to get back to a pretty great place ......striving for Perfection that as I can recall was once there

[No124get1952]

Spock,

It is interesting that you used that particular question. 49 years ago, a friend of mine from ROTC asked me that exact same question. I didn't get the answer write, nor the answer to any of his follow-on questions, so he invited me to church. My first time in a Baptist church and I got saved that day, August 10, 1968.

People who are not Christians will answer something that is based solely upon works. It's not because of ungodliness but because they are ignorant (they simply don't know) of any other method of going to heaven. That is unless you are witnessing to a Bhuddist, Hindu, Muslim or Mormon. Then you will get other interesting answers to judge.

And the New Testament says that we, as Christians are supposed to be wise enough to judge based upon godly standards. When Jesus said not to judge in Matthew 7:1,2, He was not referring to spiritual judgment, He was referring to evaluating each other based upon things other than the Word of God. That kind of judgment still draws a curse, even on Christians.

[lemurchampagne]

20 hours ago, Teditis said:

I believe that there's too much faith being put on doctrine and a complete understanding of it that leads one to Salvation.

I don't believe that we need to be theologians or even have a "good" working knowledge of Scripture to be Saved. Nor do

I believe that we need a full understanding of Who God is to be Saved.

Instead, I follow what the Scriptures say:

Acts 2:38 38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

That alone is the Good News... to trust that through some, somewhat mysterious way, God supplied to us Jesus Christ as an atonement of our sins.

That's enough... Roms. 10 9-10  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

                                                      For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It's a shame to make it more complicated.
 

I think that's a great perspective. 
I'd asked earlier what doctrine of men did Jesus champion? But that was overlooked I guess. It seems to me there is a lot of argument concerning doctrine when Jesus took issue with the Pharisee's for that very thing as being wrong on their part. And that then obscuring the true word of the Lord for all the parameters that confine the simple gift of salvation through God's grace. 

At least that's how I see it.

[Spock]

1 hour ago, No124get1952 said:

Spock,

It is interesting that you used that particular question. 49 years ago, a friend of mine from ROTC asked me that exact same question. I didn't get the answer write, nor the answer to any of his follow-on questions, so he invited me to church. My first time in a Baptist church and I got saved that day, August 10, 1968.

People who are not Christians will answer something that is based solely upon works. It's not because of ungodliness but because they are ignorant (they simply don't know) of any other method of going to heaven. That is unless you are witnessing to a Bhuddist, Hindu, Muslim or Mormon. Then you will get other interesting answers to judge.

And the New Testament says that we, as Christians are supposed to be wise enough to judge based upon godly standards. When Jesus said not to judge in Matthew 7:1,2, He was not referring to spiritual judgment, He was referring to evaluating each other based upon things other than the Word of God. That kind of judgment still draws a curse, even on Christians.

1952,

Thanks for sharing that.  I remember passing out a lot of 4 spiritual law tracts back in the 1970s. 

To follow up with my previous thought when I would present the gospel to my relatives, many of them would say, "yeah, I believe Christ died on the cross for sins" or something similar when I probed deeper (after they said they are a good person). 

Well, why couldn't you tell me this when I asked you, "Why should God allow you to enter Heaven?" 

So, I concluded this- many RCC members recite the Nicene Creed every Sunday at church and they hear enough from Gods word during the readings to have some head knowledge. Thus they tell me- "I know that!"

But I don't believe that knowledge has transferred to their heart, thus it hasn't take root and grown. 

Anyhow, that is how I see it.  You may be interested in knowing, I failed the test too when asked why God should let me in Heaven?  I remember saying something like, "I haven't murdered anyone and I usually obey my parents." Lol. 

So now you know why I especially am concerned about false doctrine being promulgated from our churches. 

Spock

[Willa]

16 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

What is mendal ascent. 

Is it like when we are in a that place where they action things, and you communicate with mendal ascent. 

It is head knowledge, knowing who Jesus is but not acknowledging His Lordship over them or following Him daily, not reading the Bible or becoming personally acquainted with Him.

[Spock]

9 minutes ago, Willa said:

It is head knowledge, knowing who Jesus is but not acknowledging His Lordship over them or following Him daily, not reading the Bible or becoming personally acquainted with Him.

That says it all. Thanks Willa.  

Remember, "even the Devils believe".....but obviously are not saved! 

[Willa]

6 hours ago, Teditis said:

Interesting insights Willa... and so much on point!

It does bother me a bit they some would go to some other as a mediator to God, other than Jesus.

I know that God cannot be happy with this and wants all people to put their trust, reliance and hope

on Jesus alone, for He alone is our source of all good things.

As to recited prayers, I don't have too much of a problem with because it mainly comes across to me as

petitions done in unison for the sake of cooperation... agreeing in thought for the church body.

I haven't seen any voodoo or animism practiced in any church that I've been to... so I can't speak to that.

I was referring to recited prayers in personal devotions, not corporate worship.  I love the traditional worship service, especially the Gloria.

 We know several people who have observed voodoo being practiced by people who claim to be protestant born again Christians.  Another lady from Peru that I worked with had married a man from Cuba who claimed to be catholic like herself; but he regularly practiced voodoo.  It is also common among cajuns.  I personally met a lady who claimed to be Christian but was a shaman of an American Indian tribe and was demonic.  Many Indian tribes are forcing their people to return to their "culture" and their animistic gods or be kicked off the reservations;   These things were practiced by individuals, not churches.   A person's salvation is not based on their church, but on their own beliefs and relationship with God.  

However, in southern Mexico the catholic church celebrates the day of the dead with familiar spirits and communing with the dead, and they have brought this 3 day event to the US.

I am also concerned about people having received Christ and walked with God then becoming deceived by false doctrine such as JW or mormon, or accepting gnostic books as part of Scripture.  Nat Geo is always producing some new gnostic gospel that is in reality a blasphemous account that is makes outrageous claims and were written in the second or thirds centuries..    There are only 66 books that are found to represent the truth and to be without error.  People who are not grounded in the Word and in sound doctrine are more susceptible to deception.