Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[iamlamad]

On 6/16/2017 at 0:48 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/16/2017 at 6:56 AM, iamlamad said:

In your theory, if I have it right, Jesus left earth for heaven, to prepare homes (palaces, mansions) for His church on earth, but then never takes His church to those mansions He has prepared. I don't think that is the intent of the Author in John 14.

 

The place He went to prepare for us is the New Jerusalem, it comes down to us, we don't go up to it.

You can wait over a thousand years to see your mansion if you wish. Meanwhile the Bride of Christ will all see theirs just before the 6th seal. Remember, John SAW them in heaven right after that. Remember that large group too large to number? I will be one of them!

[iamlamad]

On 6/16/2017 at 0:48 PM, wingnut- said:

No, returning to earth means touching down on earth, stopping in the air is not returning, it is stopping.  That would be a return to the atmosphere, and that is not the destination.  You have no scriptural support for Jesus coming to the atmosphere and stopping, the scripture you attempt to use for that does not say that, you are inferring it into the passage.

I will refrain from now on in saying Christ returns to the earth for the pretrib rapture. I will just say He COMES.

By the way, I certainly have no "corner" on assumptions or "inference."

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

Please dont take this the wrong way, but many men have been corrected over time because they keep trying to figure God out.

As soon as you said "by thinking logically" . It reminds me of Moses, who brought up as a Egyptian prince, was very logical. So what does God do, make something illogical.

I personally think God loves making fools of people being logical. 

We have the Holy Spirit, we don't have to try and "Figure" God out, he is with us always. By thinking logically means you need to look up all the Times that Day of the Lord/ Day of Christ/ Great and Terrible Day is found in the bible as I have done, and did an in-depth study on it, and LOGICALLY DEDUCED by reasoning that the Day of the Lord is a 3 1/2 year period of Gods Wrath. Go study all the things that happen on all the times the Day of the Lord is mentioned, and you will see it covers all the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments. By LOGIC I wasn't talking about Guessing, I was talking about studying the Bible, in-depth, like Daniel did, reading, studying, and praying for knowledge.

God does't make fools of His faithful servants who seek His face and Knowledge. Study the Day of the Lord everywhere its mentioned, then you can get the scope of how long it is, instead of guessing.

 

[Revelation Man]

4 hours ago, Pudgenik said:

In addition, how many days did it take God to create the earth and everything in it

God Started Creating the Universe 13.7 Billion Years ago and finished 6000 years ago when he placed a Soul in Man-kind. The First "Day" was 9.2 Billion years. Day (YOWM) has about 50 different meanings, one is a "Period of Time". The Universe is not 6000 years old. 

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Is there any scripture about what the temperature will be in heaven? How about how tall the pearly gates are?

There are many things not written in the book. I don't know about you, but I don't take leave of my senses when I study the bible. There is a "book" but we know from history that back then they had scrolls. And sealing things was not unusual. I know this from movies!  If you wish to imagine a book bound like an old Encyclopedia, fine. I don't think that is realistic. You wish to read the book without opening the cover! I find that UNrealistic.

 

I don't make guesses about things that are not written.  You don't know what I think regarding the scroll because I never said anything about it, please don't take your speculating and assign it to me.  If you want to speculate that is on you, but I will continue to call you out on it when you do.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This reference in 11:12 is ONLY speaking of the two witnesses.

 

Sorry, but that is not what Paul says, he gives you the order, which is why you are way off on this.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

There are only two, and one of them already happened, that only leaves one more and Paul tells us that is at His coming.  So the two witnesses must be part of it, there is no other option.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

However, it is my belief that at that same moment in time, all the Old Testament saints rise.

 

The Old Testament saints already rose, they are the firstfruits mentioned in I Corinthians 15:23.

 

Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are confusing the Greek word: prōtos as meaning "first in TIME SEQUENCE" only.

 

Ummmm, the book of Revelation is about a specific time, the end time.  The use of the word first is because it is the first during that time, and there is only one more, after the millennium.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus first. Church second. The 144,000 third. The Old Testament saints 4th. You see, they come in waves.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

Sorry, try again, no third or fourth mentioned in Paul's order.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but your timing is WAY OFF! Jesus has not yet returned so in your theory the rapture will not yet have happened! The two witnesses will rise at the 7th vial that ends the week.

 

The gathering occurs in the air, on His way to earth, so of course He hasn't arrived yet.  There is no second chance at this, those who are not gathered are either going to die, or they are going to turn to God and enter the millennium to re-populate the earth.  The only group we see do that are in Jersualem, following the resurrection.  This is not confusing.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul hints strongly that this is the start of the Day of the Lord. John, in Revelation 6 proves it.  The DAY comes as a thief because Christ comes as a thief and His calling up the dead in Christ is the trigger for the Day.

 

Paul doesn't hint at all, he flat out says it is the day of the Lord, but the day doesn't come as a thief, Jesus comes as a thief.  It is not in Revelation 6, it is in Revelation 16.

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

 

The scripture doesn't say IT is coming as a thief, it is a quote, and it says I am coming as a thief.  He is bringing the sudden destruction Paul speaks of.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is NOT Paul's sudden destruction.

 

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

 

I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

 

Funny he would use the exact same words then isn't it.  God isn't the author of confusion is He?  I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that is what the enemy does.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please answer a simple question: if there is an earthquake that is worldwide, how can any person be said to "escape?"

 

We see people escape the earthquake in Jerusalem don't we?  It is not the earthquake that brings the sudden destruction or that there is no escape from, it's the Rider on the White Horse.

 

Revelation 11:13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

See there, seven thousand killed, and the survivors give glory to the God of heaven.  They missed the gathering though, so they will populate the earth in the millennium.  Here is more verification to this fact.

 

Zechariah 14:5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

 

The mountain valley is created when Jesus sets down on the Mount of Olives, verse 4 from Zechariah 14, again, they missed the gathering, same people.

 

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

 

There, another witness to the event for you, Joel says it as well.  This is the only escape from the sudden destruction, whoever calls on the name of the Lord.  Only one group does this in the entire book of Revelation, and they just happen to be in Jerusalem.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

By the way, "no escape" does not mean 100% of people die.

 

I beg to differ, no escape means exactly that.   What Peter describes there is no escaping, pretending he doesn't refer to the exact same day as Paul won't change it happening precisely that way.  When God gives a prophecy and says they shall not escape, He means it, you can believe that.

 

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus is in heaven before He descends. That is simple enough.  There can be no other place He could be before John saw Him descending on the white horse.

 

Revelation 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

 

He's sitting on a cloud according to John, waiting for the Father to tell Him the day has come.  Obviously He knows it must be close at this point, He knows scripture after all.

God bless

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What? Isaiah and Ezekiel were DEAD when they saw the throne room? You amaze me!

And you are mistaken: in the past 20 years or so God has allowed many to see it. You just don't believe them.

 

I said no living person as in currently alive, Isaiah and Ezekiel were prophets, completely different.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What if God really wanted to mean "heaven" where God lives? Would He have to write it "where I live?"

 

Of course not, but scripture says what it says, we are gathered in the air.  I am not going to try and change it, I will accept what it says.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Always remember, in Paul's gathering, the "departing" must come FIRST, before the man of sin can be revealed.  That is Paul's order.

 

Departing?  What departing?  You have an interesting way of trying to change things to say what you want them to.  I am assuming you must be referring to the falling away Paul speaks of.  It is not a departing, nor is it the gathering, the word harpazo is not what is used there.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

What Paul is saying here is that the anti-christ comes first, the falling away is the great apostasy that happens because of the AC.  Not at all what you claim.  Paul's order is found in I Corinthians 15:23.

 

I Corinthians 15:23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

I know you don't like the order because it eliminates all your comings and goings, but there it is all the same.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why would you make such a statement? I have never tried to put the rapture of the living before the dead. That would be silly.

 

Of course you are, you just must not realize it.  Let me explain it to you this way, if the church leaves at the beginning as you claim, are you saying no one dies during the tribulation?  I would say not, which means you are putting the resurrection of the living ahead of the resurrection of the dead, you can't have it both ways.  Paul tells us we are all changed at the same moment right?  So how do the living get into heaven?  Can't be in the natural body can it?  Which means the resurrected body, which means you are putting the living ahead of the dead.  Again, read the order Paul gives.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I go with what is written in John 14.

 

You should, and this is what He says.

 

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

 

Jesus says He will go and prepare a place, and COME AGAIN and receive them to Himself.  He is coming to earth again, that is where He will be, that is where we will be.  He doesn't receive us to Himself, UNTIL HE COMES AGAIN.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Speaking of order, why do you not believe John's order as far as the wedding?

 

John doesn't give you an order, and the difference is I know what a marriage is, when the two become one.  I would also like to remind you of your imagined wedding, that we are told several times that there is no marriage, which should make it clear this is a metaphor.

 

Matthew 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

 

Mark 12:25  For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

 

It is symbolic, these verses specifically tell you that, they don't say "for in eternity" like most people read them, one says in the resurrection and the other says when they rise from the dead.  NO MARRIAGE, it is symbolic, a metaphor.  You are looking at this from the natural view, think spiritual my friend.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Oh, again timing has you stumped: we will get to the battle of Armageddon 7 plus years later.

 

Changing the order of things has you stumped, thinking of things to come as though they resemble things of this world has you stumped as well.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 Remember that large group too large to number? I will be one of them!

 

So will I most likely, because that group will be killed during the tribulation, which is the fate of the saints who live to see the AoD.  Either we will have died from natural causes before then or we will face the music, either way we will be there, just not the way you imagine.

God bless

[Pudgenik]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

On this, we won't have to wait and see: we can know now for it is written plainly.

Not everything is as it seems.

The scripture is full of info on nottrying to figure out the future. Even Jesus himself says to jive one day at a time. 

Do you remember when you firstbecame a Christian how you interpreted the scripture.  And now it means more to you. It is because rhe Spirit moves you to a deeper under standing.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I said no living person as in currently alive, Isaiah and Ezekiel were prophets, completely different.

No different. They were men. God is God and has never changed. Paul too was alive when He was raised.

 

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Departing?  What departing?  You have an interesting way of trying to change things to say what you want them to.  I am assuming you must be referring to the falling away Paul speaks of.  It is not a departing, nor is it the gathering, the word harpazo is not what is used there.

Tyndale:  Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Coverdale:  Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion

Geneva bible:  Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Posttrib does not believe in any departing from earth, rather believing the bride will fly up and come right back down. John 14 refutes that theory. So does 2 thes. 2. The very theme of this passage is the gathering. The departing comes right after the gathering.

It seems posttrib does not want to answer one simple question here: in the last half of 2 thes. 2:3, in Paul's argument, is the man of sin revealed?

[iamlamad]

20 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I Corinthians 15:23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

I know you don't like the order because it eliminates all your comings and goings, but there it is all the same.

It seems you still don't understand: I LOVE this order - for it is truth: 1 Thes. speaks of His coming. But taking all end times scripture together, this coming will be pretrib, a moment before the 6th seal. Christ was the very first to raise up in the first or primary or chief resurrection: the resurrection for the righteous. The Bride of Christ will be the second wave. The 144,000 will be the third wave.  The Old Testament saints along with those beheaded by the Beast plus the two witnesses will be the fourth wave. And all this will take place BEFORE the events of Rev. 19.

 

20 hours ago, wingnut- said:

On 6/17/2017 at 9:50 PM, iamlamad said:

Why would you make such a statement? I have never tried to put the rapture of the living before the dead. That would be silly.

 

Of course you are, you just must not realize it.  Let me explain it to you this way, if the church leaves at the beginning as you claim, are you saying no one dies during the tribulation?  I would say not, which means you are putting the resurrection of the living ahead of the resurrection of the dead, you can't have it both ways.  Paul tells us we are all changed at the same moment right?  So how do the living get into heaven?  Can't be in the natural body can it?  Which means the resurrected body, which means you are putting the living ahead of the dead.  Again, read the order Paul gives.

The truth is, MILLIONS will die during the 70th week. I don't follow your argument here at all. There is no conflict with scripture. The church leaves: I got that part. But there will be ANOTHER resurrection for the Old Testament saints and those beheaded at the 7th vial.  I also believe the 144,000 will be caught up around the midpoint of the week.

Edited June 19, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

 

Jesus says He will go and prepare a place, and COME AGAIN and receive them to Himself.  He is coming to earth again, that is where He will be, that is where we will be.  He doesn't receive us to Himself, UNTIL HE COMES AGAIN.

Again I repeat, 1 thes. 4 tells us Jesus comes. You imagine this is the Rev. 19 coming, but it is not. It will be Him coming FOR His bride, not with His bride. And by the way, WHERE will Jesus be during the GT? Of course in heaven.

 

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Speaking of order, why do you not believe John's order as far as the wedding?

 

John doesn't give you an order, and the difference is I know what a marriage is, when the two become one.  I would also like to remind you of your imagined wedding, that we are told several times that there is no marriage, which should make it clear this is a metaphor.

The Bride of Christ will be THERE for this "metaphor."

 

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 Remember that large group too large to number? I will be one of them!

 

So will I most likely, because that group will be killed during the tribulation, which is the fate of the saints who live to see the AoD.  Either we will have died from natural causes before then or we will face the music, either way we will be there, just not the way you imagine.

Ad libing again! There is not even one word that hints that group too large to number has been martyred. They were raptured, not martyred!