Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

(the Jews who fled)  If they get caught up as you suppose, then you have jumped from the frying pan in the fire, so to speak. SOMEONE has to remain behind to repopulate the earth. In other words, SOMEONE (meaning many, not one) must be in natural bodies. And they MUST BE  believers to enter the Millennial reign of Christ.

 

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

There they are right there, following the resurrection in verse 12.

Sorry, but you are sidestepping the issue: a very common problem with posttribbers. let's get the scenario down step by step.

Rev. 11:12 Actually will take place at the 7th vial that ends the week. They will begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, then testify for 1260 days. They will be put to death then, just 3 1/2 days from the 7th vial that ends the week. they will lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, but God will raise them up with all the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial.

But Jesus is not to be seen. He will remain in heaven for perhaps a month more, for the marriage and supper.

The Beast and the devil behind him will then gather the combined armies of the world in Israel and they will surround Jerusalem. they will burn the city and attempt to murder every Jew there. But before they can, Jesus will return as shown in Rev. 19, and destroy them.  (Rev. 17 & 18)

But on His way down, He will raise up all the church (according to the posttribbers) so that all the righteous left on earth will suddenly have resurrection bodies. That would include all the Jews who at that time believed in Jesus - IF there are any.

Therefore, please tell us, who then will be the sheep (people in natural bodies) at the sheep and goat judgment that will follow Jesus battle at Armageddon? Will they be unrighteous sheep? Or perhaps you think at that judgment suddenly the Jews (His brethren) will suddenly become believers and become sheep?

Please tell us:

WHEN will the Jews become believers? Before or after the rapture/gathering at His descent down to earth?

Keep in mind, in your scenario, at His descent down, all believers are changed into resurrection bodies. So at that moment, there will be NO human on earth in natural bodies that are believers.

Therefore, please find for us the sheep.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

23 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please don't try and tell us now that the 6th seal will actually happen at the same time as the Rev. 19 events!

 

The 6th seal is opened prior to Revelation 19, it is the sign of His coming, meaning it precedes His coming.

Which coming? He is coming twice more: first FOR His saints, and then later WITH His saints.

So I agree with your statement, but not your theory behind it. Yes, the 6th seal will be opened before His coming shown by Paul in 1 thes. 4. But that coming will be over 7 years before His coming as shown in Rev. 19.

Always remember, any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. You are attempting to pull the 6th seal from its setting before the 70th week and place in say just between chapters 18 and 19. Your theory will certainly be proven wrong.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [Not shown in Revelation but will take place before His coming shown in Rev. 19] 30 Then  [Rev. 19 timing] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then [Rev. 19 timing] all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Edited June 16, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

The seal must be opened first according to this passage.

Please allow me to assist you here. If you would picture a scroll rolled up. That scroll contains what John has written from chapter 8 after the 7th seal was broken, to the end of the book. It is rolled up and then another parchment is rolled up around it and sealed with a seal (the 7th). Then ANOTHER scroll rolled up OVER the second one and sealed (the 6th). Then a fourth is rolled up around the third and sealed, then another and another and another until finally the last one is rolled around the previous and it too is sealed, with seal #1.

So we have 8 parchments all rolled, one on top of another, with the largest being found in the inside of all the others. It will be impossible to get to the inside and largest parchment or scroll until seal one is opened, then seal 2 and so on right down to the final and 7th seal. Finally, when that is opened, the large scroll inside can be unrolled to reveal its contents: the trumpets and vials.

OR:

Perhaps it is all one large scroll with 7 seals on it. And it can be unrolled a little [and a portion of it read] when each seal is opened. But the main scroll itself cannot be unrolled and read until all 7 seals are broken and opened.

Posttribbers, and prewrathers want to see what is inside the main scroll, and are determined to tell us all that these events will happen, before all 7 seals are broken. It is simply NOT the intent of the Author. Neither is it common sense.

[Pudgenik]

May the Lord Jesus fill us with His love.

I want to help you with some thoughts that may help you with interpreting Rev.

First of all, the whole of scripture is the inspired Word of God. (We all know this) but what we often forget is that All of what God is, is the inspiration. Primarily the Trinity. Revelation is a great example of this as there is an overlapping of meaning written there in.

Plainly, there is truth to what you have written, but there is more.

Example . The concepts of the Two Witnesses. Moses and Elijah. They also represent the physical law and the spiritual law. Two bodies of thinking working together. The literal interpretation and the spiritual.

We have to understand, that as God inspired the Word to be written, that it refects Him to.

Some of Rev is chronological and some is not.

Before i continue, we must understand, all scripture agrees with itself.

The Breaking of the Seals. Also known as the four horsemen.

When we look at Zechariah 6:1-15 we find scripture speaking of the horses, and what direction they go in. 

The question that should come to your mind is, where is the starting point.

It is Jerusalem.  If you pay attention to the directions and ro what the horsemen stand for then you will see something interesting. 

I will get back to the white horse. 

The second seal, the red horse. Most if not all of the terrorists come from countries to the west of Israel. 

The 3rd black horse north. Look at the economy of Europe.

4th horse south, most of the horrible plagues of our time, have come from the south. 

Back to the first horseman. We have to remember, God's Word. We can make it more complicated by over thinking it.

White in Isreal means peace.

The rider was holding a bow with arrows. 

He was given a crown ( a victors crown) but it never says he conquers anything.

My personal belief is that this white horse represents the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal.

All the countries involed all the entities involved, they all had the bow and arrows represented as thier national symble. USA, Egypt, The Vatican, and Isreal.

The 5th seal, look at all the Christians around the world who have been slaughtered over these past 20 plus years.

Now we come to the crux of it all. The Six Seal. If you carfully read it. On the very last verse it says " They said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the One who sitson the throne and from the anger of the Lamb. For the Great Day of His anger has come"

What makes this interesting is, all the other 5 seals have broken, yet no one payed attention to them. It is only this one that catches thier attention. 

In every book from Isaiah to the end of the Old Testiment, you can find a statement in them about this moment.

I think Isaiah 13 sums it up best. 

Sincerely in Christ. Pudge

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Where do you imagine the "air" is?

 

Step outside and look up.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Do you imagine it is in heaven where the throne of God is?

 

Can you see the throne of God on a clear day?  I think not, you can't even see it from outer space, which is another layer of the heavens.  God's throne is beyond that, and no living person has seen it.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul was talking about EARTH'S air where we see clouds!

 

Yay, finally you see it, now pay close attention to this verse.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,

 

Birds do not fly around the throne of God, but yet they fly in the midst of heaven.  That would be the air with the clouds, still part of the heavens.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I hope you understand, the "dead in Christ" are currently "bodyless." They are right now spirit and soul but their body was buried and for some, of course returned to dust.  But God is going to turn that dust back into their body, and then change it into a resurrection body. It will be THEIR body, but it will be a resurrection body that will never die.  This is not that difficult.

 

I agree, it is not difficult at all, that is precisely what happens.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"They return to earth:"  These are those who have died in Christ. They (spirit and soul) have been in heaven where Jesus is. Their new resurrection bodies are NOT GOING TO GO TO HEAVEN for them to meet with their new bodies. They are going to leave heaven and return to earth with Jesus AT HIS NEXT COMING. At the sound of the trumpet all the dead in Christ's bodies will fly up from the grave by the power of the Holy Spirit, and their spirit and soul will meet with their body, IN THE AIR. That is, the AIR around the earth. The very air we breathe. Again, this is not difficult.

 

Agreed, that is exactly what happens.  According to Paul the dead rise first, then those who are alive and remain join them in the same place and get their bodies at the same time.  So why are you trying to change that around?

 

I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

By your own admission this is the gathering, and the dead rise first, they do not go back to heaven, then the living join them and everyone returns to the earth.  It isn't hard to understand at all when you go with what is written and don't try to change the order of things.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John 14 tells us that after their spirit and soul have obtained a new resurrection body, and they are whole again, they will go where JESUS will be. Since all this will take place pretrib (John saw the raptured church around the throne of God before he ever even started the "trib) Jesus will be IN HEAVEN at that time, so the dead in Christ, now alive in Christ with their new bodies, will go to heaven while Jesus will go BACK to heaven as their escort.  Of course those who are alive in Christ will accompany them.

 

Now you are confused again, contradicting yourself.  They do not go back to heaven, we all come down for the battle of Armageddon.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In your theory, if I have it right, Jesus left earth for heaven, to prepare homes (palaces, mansions) for His church on earth, but then never takes His church to those mansions He has prepared. I don't think that is the intent of the Author in John 14.

 

The place He went to prepare for us is the New Jerusalem, it comes down to us, we don't go up to it.

 

Revelation 21: 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If I don't understand your theory, suppose instead of poking fun, you explain it.

 

I've been explaining it for many pages now.  I'm sorry if you think I'm poking fun, that is not at all my intention.  I will refrain from attempting to inject any humor into my posts in the future.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Note: When someone leaves the moon as our astronauts have,  and it is said that they are "coming" to  "return to earth" do you imagine they must touch down and set their feet on the ground to satisfy "return to earth?  is not the atmosphere around the earth sufficient to say they returned to earth? Make no mistake here: Jesus is coming soon, but ONLY to the atmosphere. He will not "touch down." He will return to heaven with His Bride.

 

No, returning to earth means touching down on earth, stopping in the air is not returning, it is stopping.  That would be a return to the atmosphere, and that is not the destination.  You have no scriptural support for Jesus coming to the atmosphere and stopping, the scripture you attempt to use for that does not say that, you are inferring it into the passage.

God bless

[Revelation Man]

27 minutes ago, Pudgenik said:

May the Lord Jesus fill us with His love.

I want to help you with some thoughts that may help you with interpreting Rev.

First of all, the whole of scripture is the inspired Word of God. (We all know this) but what we often forget is that All of what God is, is the inspiration. Primarily the Trinity. Revelation is a great example of this as there is an overlapping of meaning written there in.

Plainly, there is truth to what you have written, but there is more.

Example . The concepts of the Two Witnesses. Moses and Elijah. They also represent the physical law and the spiritual law. Two bodies of thinking working together. The literal interpretation and the spiritual.

We have to understand, that as God inspired the Word to be written, that it refects Him to.

Some of Rev is chronological and some is not.

Before i continue, we must understand, all scripture agrees with itself.

The Breaking of the Seals. Also known as the four horsemen.

When we look at Zechariah 6:1-15 we find scripture speaking of the horses, and what direction they go in. 

The question that should come to your mind is, where is the starting point.

It is Jerusalem.  If you pay attention to the directions and ro what the horsemen stand for then you will see something interesting. 

I will get back to the white horse. 

The second seal, the red horse. Most if not all of the terrorists come from countries to the west of Israel. 

The 3rd black horse north. Look at the economy of Europe.

4th horse south, most of the horrible plagues of our time, have come from the south. 

Back to the first horseman. We have to remember, God's Word. We can make it more complicated by over thinking it.

White in Isreal means peace.

The rider was holding a bow with arrows. 

He was given a crown ( a victors crown) but it never says he conquers anything.

My personal belief is that this white horse represents the peace treaty between Egypt and Isreal.

All the countries involed all the entities involved, they all had the bow and arrows represented as thier national symble. USA, Egypt, The Vatican, and Isreal.

The 5th seal, look at all the Christians around the world who have been slaughtered over these past 20 plus years.

Now we come to the crux of it all. The Six Seal. If you carfully read it. On the very last verse it says " They said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the One who sitson the throne and from the anger of the Lamb. For the Great Day of His anger has come"

What makes this interesting is, all the other 5 seals have broken, yet no one payed attention to them. It is only this one that catches thier attention. 

In every book from Isaiah to the end of the Old Testiment, you can find a statement in them about this moment.

I think Isaiah 13 sums it up best. 

Sincerely in Christ. Pudge

Sorry brother the Seals have not been broken, and the White Horse is not Israel, it is the Anti-Christ who then brings forth the Red, Black and Pale horses with his workings. The 5th Seal is the Martyrs during the Tribulation period, not Christians now. The Church is Raptured to Heaven, those that become Christians after the Rapture are the ones mentioned under the Alter in the 5th Seal.

[Pudgenik]

37 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Sorry brother the Seals have not been broken, and the White Horse is not Israel, it is the Anti-Christ who then brings forth the Red, Black and Pale horses with his workings. The 5th Seal is the Martyrs during the Tribulation period, not Christians now. The Church is Raptured to Heaven, those that become Christians after the Rapture are the ones mentioned under the Alter in the 5th Seal.

Ah, a rapture believer. Would you mind sending me all the texts pertaining to the rapture. 

Not the one at the end of time when we are caught up to Christ at His return. Thanks

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

On the other hand, both Peter and Paul told us THEIR stories. Do you imagine Peter and Paul convinced themselves of "all kinds of things that were not true?"

 

Peter and Paul were chosen apostles of the Lord, everything they wrote is absolutely true.  So instead of trying to evade scripture, please explain your position on the following passages which I have already posted once, and you avoided addressing.

 

I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

 

So Paul tells us of the day of the Lord coming as a thief, and when it comes it brings SUDDEN DESTRUCTION from which there is NO ESCAPE.

 

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 

 

Peter gives details as to what this SUDDEN DESTRUCTION is, and clearly the heavens, elements, and earth melting equates to NO ESCAPE.  So please, address what Peter had to say about the day of the Lord and explain how SUDDEN DESTRUCTION takes 7 years.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why would you even imagine that a believer - one with faith in Jesus Christ as their savior - one who KNOWs the scripture says liars will not make it to heaven - would just make up stories? Today we have TOO MANY such stories, all telling us similar things (because they all saw the same things). God said let everything be established with two or three witnesses. We have dozens.

 

We are told to test all things against scripture, Paul nor John recorded any such thing as large banquet tables and chairs with peoples names on them.  These tales have no basis in scripture, and should not be accepted as truth by anyone.  Scripture also tells us that is appointed once for man to die, so I do not accept things that oppose scripture, not even when doctors tell me that I died.  They are mistaken, scripture is not.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why would you imagine that God has changed: that He took people to heaven in the Old Testament but under the New Testament has not? Have you not read the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel? They SAW heaven. And they told us what they saw. When a believer today tells us they saw the four beasts, and describes them quite like John did, why should we doubt them? Do you just imagine that all other believers besides yourself are liars? You amaze me.

 

God has not changed at all, and what the prophets saw is absolute truth, this is why you find it in scripture.  When a believer today describes something they saw from reading their bible it is simply recalling something they have already read.  When they add things to the bible, I do not accept that, nor should you.  Again, it is appointed once for man to die, try holding scripture at a higher value than someone's imagination.  I am not saying they don't believe what they are saying, nor am I calling anyone a liar, I am telling you that people convince themselves of what they want to be true.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are are STILL left with the same problem: John tells us the marriage will take place in heaven, before Jesus gets on His white horse.

 

The air above the earth is part of the heavens, whether you want to admit it or not, you cannot ignore the scripture.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,

 

Birds fly in our atmosphere, not around God's throne, you need to face this reality.

John does not tell us the marriage takes place before Jesus gets on His white horse, you are reading that into the scripture yourself because you insist on a chronology and do not understand what a marriage is by the biblical definition.  You should really study Matthew 22 regarding the parable of the wedding and maybe that would help you out.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let me assist you here: Rev. 19 begins with thanksgiving over the destruction of Babylon. Next John tells us there is a GREAT multitude, all shouting:

Hallelujah: for the Lord God omnipotent reigns. It is now time for the marriage! (it seems that the crowd says this, but perhaps they only give praise and someone else says these words about the marriage.)

 

And we see God call His people out as the fall of Babylon commences, when the head and body are united the two become one, a marriage.

God bless

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you are sidestepping the issue: a very common problem with posttribbers.

 

Unreal, a direct answer with scripture and you continue to ask the same thing.  I'm not sure what more can be said, but I will try one last time.

 

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

 

This verse is speaking of the gathering/ rapture / first resurrection.  The two witnesses are part of the first resurrection, there is not another resurrection until after the millennium.  So once this occurs, anyone left on earth that comes to belief will enter the millennium in their natural bodies.  Are you with me so far?

 

Revelation 11:13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

In the very next verse, we are told about survivors in Jerusalem, these survivors give glory to the God of heaven.  These are the people who will enter the millennial kingdom in their natural bodies.  Do you see them there?

 

Zechariah 14  Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

In verse 1 Zechariah tells us this is the day of the Lord, the same day Peter and Paul told us about in their writings.  The beast and his army of ten kings attack Jerusalem, they take the city.  This is the fall of Babylon.

 

Zechariah 14:3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

 

Verse 3, the Lord is going to fight against those nations that attacked Jerusalem.  

Verse 4, He arrives on earth, standing on the Mount of Olives which splits the mountain in two, creating a very large valley.  He has returned at this point, it is after the gathering/ rapture/ first resurrection.

Verse 5, the survivors in Jerusalem that gave glory to the God of heaven will flee through this large valley, these are the people who inhabit the millennial kingdom.  Is that clear enough for you?

God bless

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Which coming? He is coming twice more: first FOR His saints, and then later WITH His saints.

 

Please show scripture that states He is coming twice more.