Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Please allow me to assist you here. If you would picture a scroll rolled up. That scroll contains what John has written from chapter 8 after the 7th seal was broken, to the end of the book. It is rolled up and then another parchment is rolled up around it and sealed with a seal (the 7th). Then ANOTHER scroll rolled up OVER the second one and sealed (the 6th). Then a fourth is rolled up around the third and sealed, then another and another and another until finally the last one is rolled around the previous and it too is sealed, with seal #1.

So we have 8 parchments all rolled, one on top of another, with the largest being found in the inside of all the others. It will be impossible to get to the inside and largest parchment or scroll until seal one is opened, then seal 2 and so on right down to the final and 7th seal. Finally, when that is opened, the large scroll inside can be unrolled to reveal its contents: the trumpets and vials.

OR:

Perhaps it is all one large scroll with 7 seals on it. And it can be unrolled a little [and a portion of it read] when each seal is opened. But the main scroll itself cannot be unrolled and read until all 7 seals are broken and opened.

Posttribbers, and prewrathers want to see what is inside the main scroll, and are determined to tell us all that these events will happen, before all 7 seals are broken. It is simply NOT the intent of the Author. Neither is it common sense.

 

Please post the scripture that describes this and verifies your inferences.  Show us where John describes this as the way it is, or anyone else in scripture.

[Revelation Man]

56 minutes ago, Pudgenik said:

Ah, a rapture believer. Would you mind sending me all the texts pertaining to the rapture. 

Not the one at the end of time when we are caught up to Christ at His return. Thanks

As a Christian you should know them. 

[Pudgenik]

1 minute ago, Revelation Man said:

As a Christian you should know them. 

You dont know them, is that what you are saying?

I dont have the bible memorized.

As a Christain, you should be more polite and open to the fact, we don't know everything. I certainly do not. 

The spiritual work i do in Jesus, i can't speak of it here. Not because i don't want to, but because virtually no one here could handle it.

 Does this mean im full of myself? Of coarse not. It just means there are things that are beyond you. 

Think of it this way. Would you tell a child of 6 about thebirds and the bees (sexual stuff ). Of coarse not. Why, they are not ready. In the same manner, as learned as some of you seem, you are not.

Am i insulting you, no!

It is just a fact. There is much more to God and to Rev than you allow yourself to understand.

Sincerely pudge

[Revelation Man]

1 minute ago, Pudgenik said:

You dont know them, is that what you are saying?

I dont have the bible memorized.

As a Christain, you should be more polite and open to the fact, we don't know everything. I certainly do not. 

The spiritual work i do in Jesus, i can't speak of it here. Not because i don't want to, but because virtually no one here could handle it.

 Does this mean im full of myself? Of coarse not. It just means there are things that are beyond you. 

Think of it this way. Would you tell a child of 6 about thebirds and the bees (sexual stuff ). Of coarse not. Why, they are not ready. In the same manner, as learned as some of you seem, you are not.

Am i insulting you, no!

It is just a fact. There is much more to God and to Rev than you allow yourself to understand.

Sincerely pudge

So you are telling me you do not know where those scriptures are ? Get back with me if thats a fact and I will share them, I figured you were just trying to make a point. And I wasn't trying to give an in depth overview of Revelation here, I was pointing out a TIME-LINE............Look for my Babylon thread called Babylon, the Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained.  https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/203449-babylon-the-harlot-and-the-seven-headed-beast-explained/

That is more about understanding Revelation Secrets. 

 

 

[Pudgenik]

3 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

So you are telling me you do not know where those scriptures are ? Get back with me if thats a fact and I will share them, I figured you were just trying to make a point. And I wasn't trying to give an in depth overview of Revelation here, I was pointing out a TIME-LINE............Look for my Babylon thread called Babylon, the Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained.  https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/203449-babylon-the-harlot-and-the-seven-headed-beast-explained/

That is more about understanding Revelation Secrets. 

 

 

Didnt you hear what i wrote the very first time. There is truth in your words, but there is also more. And like i showed you about the Two Witnesses, i recognize them as two people, but they also represent the spiritual and physical in the same moment.

When scripture talks of the beast that comes out of the sea, it is not talking of a creature, but a way of thinking. A sea change

[Revelation Man]

2 minutes ago, Pudgenik said:

Didnt you hear what i wrote the very first time. There is truth in your words, but there is also more. And like i showed you about the Two Witnesses, i recognize them as two people, but they also represent the spiritual and physical in the same moment.

When scripture talks of the beast that comes out of the sea, it is not talking of a creature, but a way of thinking. A sea change

I know that, read my thread on Babylon, this thread is about a Time-line.  I explain the Beast in detail, and what it means.  

[Pudgenik]

2 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I know that, read my thread on Babylon, this thread is about a Time-line.  I explain the Beast in detail, and what it means.  

I forgot to ask you for the bible versus on rapture

[Pudgenik]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Peter and Paul were chosen apostles of the Lord, everything they wrote is absolutely true.  So instead of trying to evade scripture, please explain your position on the following passages which I have already posted once, and you avoided addressing.

 

I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

 

So Paul tells us of the day of the Lord coming as a thief, and when it comes it brings SUDDEN DESTRUCTION from which there is NO ESCAPE.

 

II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 

 

Peter gives details as to what this SUDDEN DESTRUCTION is, and clearly the heavens, elements, and earth melting equates to NO ESCAPE.  So please, address what Peter had to say about the day of the Lord and explain how SUDDEN DESTRUCTION takes 7 years.

 

 

We are told to test all things against scripture, Paul nor John recorded any such thing as large banquet tables and chairs with peoples names on them.  These tales have no basis in scripture, and should not be accepted as truth by anyone.  Scripture also tells us that is appointed once for man to die, so I do not accept things that oppose scripture, not even when doctors tell me that I died.  They are mistaken, scripture is not.

 

 

God has not changed at all, and what the prophets saw is absolute truth, this is why you find it in scripture.  When a believer today describes something they saw from reading their bible it is simply recalling something they have already read.  When they add things to the bible, I do not accept that, nor should you.  Again, it is appointed once for man to die, try holding scripture at a higher value than someone's imagination.  I am not saying they don't believe what they are saying, nor am I calling anyone a liar, I am telling you that people convince themselves of what they want to be true.

 

 

The air above the earth is part of the heavens, whether you want to admit it or not, you cannot ignore the scripture.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,

 

Birds fly in our atmosphere, not around God's throne, you need to face this reality.

John does not tell us the marriage takes place before Jesus gets on His white horse, you are reading that into the scripture yourself because you insist on a chronology and do not understand what a marriage is by the biblical definition.  You should really study Matthew 22 regarding the parable of the wedding and maybe that would help you out.

 

 

And we see God call His people out as the fall of Babylon commences, when the head and body are united the two become one, a marriage.

God bless

So stuck in the physical. You'ld be amazed at all the life in heaven. 

Has it occured to you guys, you are talking about 2 different days. 

There is a Great Day of the Lord, also known as the sixth seal, and there is the Day of the Lord.

[wingnut-]

13 minutes ago, Pudgenik said:

So stuck in the physical. You'ld be amazed at all the life in heaven. 

Has it occured to you guys, you are talking about 2 different days. 

There is a Great Day of the Lord, also known as the sixth seal, and there is the Day of the Lord.

 

Apparently you have not read the entire conversation, I am not stuck on the physical, which is why I am trying to point out that the marriage is a metaphor, not some earthly ceremony.  I disagree that they are two days, it is the same day, one day, which my friend here wants to make a 7 year day, others want to make it a 3 1/2 year day.  None of which has any basis in scripture.

God bless

[Revelation Man]

1 minute ago, Pudgenik said:

I forgot to ask you for the bible versus on rapture

The Bible describes the Rapture and Second Coming as different events.

The Bible must see the Rapture (Jn. 14:1-4; I Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thes. 4:13-18) and the Second Coming (Zech. 14:1-21; Matt. 24:29-31; Mk. 13:24-27; Lk. 21:25-27; Rev. 19) as separate events, because when the verses are compared they describe two very different scenarios:

Rapture — believers meet Christ in the air
Second Coming — Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the believers on earth

Rapture — Mount of Olives is unchanged
Second Coming — Mount of Olives is divided, forming a valley east of Jerusalem

Rapture — living believers obtain glorified bodies
Second Coming — living believers remain in same bodies

Rapture — believers go to heaven
Second Coming — glorified believers come from heaven, earthly believers stay on earth

Rapture — world left unjudged and living in sin
Second Coming — world is judged and righteousness is established

Rapture — depicts deliverance of the Church from wrath
Second Coming — depicts deliverance of believers who endured wrath

Rapture — no signs precede it
Second Coming — many signs precede it

Rapture — revealed only in New Testament
Second Coming — revealed in both Old and New Testaments

Rapture — deals with only the saved
Second Coming — deals with both the saved and unsaved

Rapture — Satan remains free
Second Coming — Satan is bound and thrown into the Abyss

Since the Rapture and Second Coming clearly are different events that do not occur at the same time, this would rule out a Post-Tribulation Rapture scenario

The Rapture is described as occurring at any time without warning.

Jesus stated in Matthew 24:42,44 to “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come… So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” Not only do believers in Christ not know when to expect Him, but the Father Himself seems to have left Jesus out on the exact time His Son is to return. As Jesus stated in Matthew 24:36, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” These and other verses (Mat. 24:36,42,44,50; 25:13; 1 Thes. 4:18; Tit. 2:13; 1 Jn. 2:28; 3:2-3) indicate that Jesus’ arrival will come when nobody expects it.

The Second Coming, on the other hand, is preceded by many events, such as the rise of the Antichrist (Rev. 12:13-17; Zech; 13:7-9), a treaty with Israel (Dan. 9:27), the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple (Mat. 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; Rev. 11:1-2), as well as plagues and judgments and persecutions destroying most of the world’s population (Rev. 6-18). The Book of Revelation reports these events as occurring during the 7-year Tribulation, which Revelation reveals precede the Second Coming.

Because the Rapture could happen at any moment and without warning and the Second Coming is preceded by so many signs, then the Rapture and Second Coming must be different events. The Rapture has to occur before the seven years’ worth of signs, because Christians are called to look for the Lord’s return rather than signs such as the Antichrist’s arrival. Once the signs begin, then the seven year countdown begins towards its end with Christ’s return at the Second Coming.

Jesus’ imminent return dismisses any of the other viewpoints related to a rapture that occur within or at the end of the Tribulation.

The Tribulation is for Israel’s redemption.

Jeremiah 30:7 describes the Tribulation as the “time of Jacob’s trouble” — “How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.”

In the Book of Matthew, whose primary audience is the Jews, Jesus explains to his Jewish followers what life will be like during the Tribulation. Also, Revelation 12 describes picturesquely a woman who gives birth and has to flee due to persecution during the Tribulation. The context shows the woman is Israel. And again, the Battle of Armageddon is the world against Israel. Two-thirds of the Jewish people will be killed from these battles. These texts and others show that the Tribulation is meant for the redemption of the Jewish people.

Why are the Jews the object of persecution during the Tribulation? For one, Satan hates the Jewish people for giving the world the Scriptures and the Messiah, as well as he wishes to thwart God’s promises to the Jews (see Bedrock #4). Secondly, the Jews have to be so desperately brought low that they finally call out to their Messiah “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” (Mat. 23:39; Lk. 13:35). The Tribulation, then, is used for Israel’s redemption which also results in the punishment of the wicked. The Church does not fit into this scenario, and are left out of the purposes of the Tribulation. They would need to be removed — caught up — before the Tribulation begins.

The Tribulation is not for the Church.

The Tribulation is God’s wrath upon the unbelieving world, and not for those who are saved from Christ’s resurrection to the Rapture — called the Church. Yes believers have suffered all throughout human history, but there is a special time (just like the Flood) set apart called the Day of the Lord for God’s wrath. Christians suffering and the Tribulation/Day of the Lord are different.

True believers in Christ during the Church Age, represented by the Church of Philadelphia, are promised in Revelation 3:10, “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” Paul states in 1 Thessalonians 1:10, “and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.” He also states in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:9 states, “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!”Ephesians 5:6 states, “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.” Colossians 3:4 states, “When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” Again and again, Scripture states the Church is not meant to endure God’s wrath.

God’s wrath involves the whole 7-Year Tribulation.

The view that the Rapture will occur at the mid-point of the Tribulation is based upon 1 Corinthians 15:52 which states that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of “the last trumpet.” This Mid-Tribulation Rapture view then declares this trumpet to be the last of the seven trumpets in Revelation 11 that is blown at the mid-point of the Tribulation. Why of the 114 references to trumpets in the Bible these two are identified as one and the same only defies sound Bible study. The context clearly shows the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets therefore can have no relevance for the Church.

Proponents of the Pre-Wrath Rapture view believe the Rapture will occur about three-quarters of the way through the Tribulation, about five years or shortly thereafter, with up to four comings of Christ. 

Some verses that support the Rapture Logic of Christendom

First Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.”

First Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

Titus 2:13 “waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

First Corinthians 15:51-53 “Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.  For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.”

2 Thessalonians 2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.