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On 6/7/2017 at 9:35 AM, Judas Machabeus said:

The council of Trent was no different than previous councils. It simply put into writing what had already been taught and believed since the time of Jesus. When a heresies arises a council is called to sort things out and find the truth.

Martin Luthers teachings were considered heretical since they were a new teaching that went contrary to orthodoxy. So the Church called a council to determine where the truth lied and also corrected some abuses that were taking place at the time. It's also a legal document and therefore uses legal language and can seem archaic. A mixture of old English and legalize makes for easy confusion.

Of course Protestants today (and back than) would argue that his teaching were not heretical, but the problem is there is no Church or otherwise teaching what Luther taught. It was a brand new teaching and theology and thus meets the definition of a heresy. So now to combat that problem Protestants had to come up with an explanation why a previous untaught theology is true and not heresy so they declared the Catholic Church corrupt and Luther brought back the true teachings of the true church. Again, its a nice story but unfortunately there is no proof and goes against scripture. Scripture tells us that Jesus founded a church and that he will be with us to the end of the age and he will send us the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth. So how can Jesus be with us and the Holy Spirit guiding us and His church becomes corrupt? Doesn't make sense.

One more thing as I wrap up this post..... Only Catholics and be anametha (excommunicated). Its hard to kick someone out of a church that isn't a member of that church right?

Cheers and blessing 

How can any teaching of the New Testament, Scripture Sola, not be a teaching of the early Church?   The fact that the catholic church departed from the teaching of the early church is self evident upon reading Romans, Ephesians, Galatians.   Salvation is a free gift from God through faith.  Period.  It cannot be earned or conferred on by man.  It is completely a gift from God, even the faith to believe.  The work of the Holy Spirit can be resisted and quenched.  That is a part of free will.  But the Catholic church fell into sin when it presumed to take control of the gift of salvation.  It became an institution of men when it departed from Scripture.  James only mentions that intellectual belief is dead if it produces no fruit.  Living belief that trusts in, clings to, adheres to Christ and His living words are a product of His life within us, and creates a response.  Even the thief on the cross confessed Jesus as Lord and Messiah when he said "remember me when You come into Your Kingdom".  The problems comes when man dictates what the response should be , to a person hanging on a cross.  Such as to take part in the sacriments of the church so many times a years and say the rosary, the Our Father and damnable prayers to Mary, so many times.  Protestants returned us to faith in God through His living Word, not faith in saints or faith in a church.  

Joh 6:44  No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.  Joh 6:45  It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

Joh 6:63  It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Rom 3:24  and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,  Rom 3:25  whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith

Rom 4:5  And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Rom 4:21  fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.  Rom 4:22  That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."  Rom 4:23  But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, Rom 4:24  but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, Rom 4:25  who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.  Rom 5:1  Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.  

Rom 6:22  But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.  Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 10:17  So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Rom 10:9  because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:10  For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Gal 2:16  yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:2  Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?  Gal 3:3  Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,  Eph 2:9  not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Php 2:16  holding fast to the word of life

Mar 7:6  And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;  Mar 7:7  in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'  Mar 7:8  You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."  Mar 7:9  And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

Throughout Scripture we find that it is God's word that gives life.  It is faith in God and in His word that saves.  That the church departed from the words of the Spirit and went its own way is self evident.  I am so thankful that God brought Scriptural truth back to His church through the protestant reformers.  Now we all can read the Bible and its truth is not hidden from us by the Roman church, which in full knowledge of its sin had hidden the truth from the laity for centuries, afraid of losing control over them.  But the truth has set us free, and whom the Lord sets free is free indeed!  Your challenge to Luther and the reformers  that he brought some new and foreign teaching to the church is so laughable.  I have never been so convinced that the catholic church has been filled with corruption and perversion of God's word, and doesn't resemble the church established at Pentecost or even the first century church described in the Didache.  Never have I seen so clearly that the catholic church is nothing but a pagan perversion of the true church.  Behind closed doors it has created dogma and then tried to justify it by twisting Scripture to their own destruction, much like the pharisees of old.

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The 66 books of the Bible, the New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament, are the only ones acknowledged by Protestants.  Others contain obvious error.  The only way to return to the teaching of the first century church is to return to Scripture Sola.  

The leaders of the Catholic Church have ignored salvation by grace through faith being a gift from God.  They require works dictated by their church as needed for salvation.  They claimed salvation by faith alone was a new teaching!  False !  

Oral traditions were no longer a need after the Bible was written.  Sticking to the Bible keeps us from wandering into the traditions of men and myths, like the Roman church has done.

 Christ is/was a Rabbi, but is also God in human flesh, the Word made flesh.   

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26 minutes ago, Willa said:

The 66 books of the Bible, the New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament, are the only ones acknowledged by Protestants.  Others contain obvious error.  The only way to return to the teaching of the first century church is to return to Scripture Sola.  

The leaders of the Catholic Church have ignored salvation by grace through faith being a gift from God.  They require works dictated by their church as needed for salvation.  They claimed salvation by faith alone was a new teaching!  False !  

Oral traditions were no longer a need after the Bible was written.  Sticking to the Bible keeps us from wandering into the traditions of men and myths, like the Roman church has done.

 Christ is/was a Rabbi, but is also God in human flesh, the Word made flesh.   

So all people have to do is make the mental declarion that they are saved by grace and that's it, they're saved?  The Catholic church believes that we are saved by grace too.  Living Faith is the believers part, works is the evidence.  Works doesn't save anybody but it is the evidence that something significant has taken place in the life of a believer.  

Edited by fixerupper
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Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 

Numbers 21:4 From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food.” 6 Then the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7 And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

 The text in Numbers 21:4 isn't speaking of the Nehushtan as an idol. The people were not instructed to worship it. They were instructed to look at it. The serpent wasn't an idol. It was a sending by God that represented the peoples own transgressions and impatience with God's plan for them.  

In Genesis the Serpent brought sin into the world. God in Numbers sent fiery serpents to the Israelites who lost faith in God and Moses and they fell back into their sinful ways. In Exodus they created the idol, the golden calf, because they lost faith Moses would return from the mountain where he went to meet God and have given him God's laws.  The fiery serpents God sent were like numbering the Israelites sins since their Exodus from Egypt. 

When the staff with the fiery serpent was lifted above them, that was the representation of Jesus becoming a curse for us, taking sin upon himself on the cross, the serpent on the pole, (cross). And if the people looked at that sin lifted up , where Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself, all fiery serpents the world over, and saved the world from them, the people were healed from the bites of the fiery serpents. They were healed from the sins in their life. 

 

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." -Jesus Christ, John 3:14-16

The Nehushtan was a representation of Christ. 

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10 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

brakelite you claim to have been a devote Catholic in your twenties and educated throughout your young life.

can you tell us the Catholic teaching on co-redemtrix please.

 

 

Certainly, although such a concept was unknown to me in my early years.

It is based on the misconception that the woman spoken of in Genesis 3:15 refers to Mary, whereas correct exegesis and understanding correct symbolism in prophecy  reveals that the woman spoken of here is representative of the church. This error within Catholic thinking is repeated in Revelation 12 and Revelation 17. The woman in Revelation 12 being the true church, the harlot representative of an apostate church.

I see no purpose in going further. If the foundation or root is error, the fruits will be also.

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On 07/06/2017 at 5:35 PM, Judas Machabeus said:

The council of Trent was no different than previous councils. It simply put into writing what had already been taught and believed since the time of Jesus. When a heresies arises a council is called to sort things out and find the truth.

Martin Luthers teachings were considered heretical since they were a new teaching that went contrary to orthodoxy. So the Church called a council to determine where the truth lied and also corrected some abuses that were taking place at the time. It's also a legal document and therefore uses legal language and can seem archaic. A mixture of old English and legalize makes for easy confusion.

Of course Protestants today (and back than) would argue that his teaching were not heretical, but the problem is there is no Church or otherwise teaching what Luther taught. It was a brand new teaching and theology and thus meets the definition of a heresy. So now to combat that problem Protestants had to come up with an explanation why a previous untaught theology is true and not heresy so they declared the Catholic Church corrupt and Luther brought back the true teachings of the true church. Again, its a nice story but unfortunately there is no proof and goes against scripture. Scripture tells us that Jesus founded a church and that he will be with us to the end of the age and he will send us the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth. So how can Jesus be with us and the Holy Spirit guiding us and His church becomes corrupt? Doesn't make sense.

One more thing as I wrap up this post..... Only Catholics and be anametha (excommunicated). Its hard to kick someone out of a church that isn't a member of that church right?

Cheers and blessing 

Just because Jesus founded a church it does not mean it was the Roman Catholic one. In fact it can't be Roman Catholicism.

Scripture tells us that the Church is any group of Christians that come together. We are the Church.

Secondly, the Roman Catholic Church started a few hundred years after the crucifixion, and long after the death of Peter whom they claim was the first Pope.. Rome had been persecuting Christians for years!

The RCC is not mentioned in future prophecy as being a Church. The early chapters of the book of Revelation does mention Churches such as the church of Philadelphia, the Nicolaitians and so on..... how can this be Roman Catholicism if they are all separate churches?

The RCC also preaches doctrine that goes against scripture such as Mariolatry which diverts a believer from praying to Jesus, instead seeking salvation from somebody who cannot give it, a diabolical trick if ever there was one.

The RCC has burned and destroyed more Bibles than any other body in history. How can an organisation that claims to follow Christ destroy the word of God? Early protestants were arrested and their handmade bibles were confiscated and burned, because Rome did not want the ordinary people to read bibles as they knew that the Vatican would be exposed for their lies if they did.

In fact the Protestant reformation only succeeded due to the invention of the printing press because the RCC was unable to burn bibles fast enough.

Luther was a Catholic priest so he knew all about the false teachings of Rome. As a member of the Catholic clergy he had access to bibles and when he read scripture, he was shocked to find just how perverse and non-scriptural the teachings of Rome were.

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9 hours ago, OakWood said:

....

Luther was a Catholic priest so he knew all about the false teachings of Rome. As a member of the Catholic clergy he had access to bibles and when he read scripture, he was shocked to find just how perverse and non-scriptural the teachings of Rome were.

Luther was a Catholic reformer whose criticism of the papacy was codified in 95 theses that expressed two central themes: "that the Bible is the central religious authority and that humans may reach salvation only by their faith and not by their deeds," specifically the sale of indulgences. Most of Luther's theses deal with indulgences and the pope's abuse of them.

http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

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39 minutes ago, OldSchool2 said:

Luther was a Catholic reformer whose criticism of the papacy was codified in 95 theses that expressed two central themes: "that the Bible is the central religious authority and that humans may reach salvation only by their faith and not by their deeds," specifically the sale of indulgences. Most of Luther's theses deal with indulgences and the pope's abuse of them.

http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

That's correct. It was the sale of indulges that really incensed Luther, and was the triggering point for his attempts to modify and reform the errors of Catholicism. However, after realising that he couldn't reform the church of Rome, he then rebelled against it.

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5 minutes ago, OakWood said:

That's correct. It was the sale of indulges that really incensed Luther, and was the triggering point for his attempts to modify and reform the errors of Catholicism. However, after realising that he couldn't reform the church of Rome, he then rebelled against it.

It wasn't that Luther had rebelled against his church, but that Pope Leo excommunicated him in 1521.

"Luther returned to Wittenberg in 1521, where the reform movement initiated by his writings had grown beyond his influence. It was no longer a purely theological cause; it had become political. Other leaders stepped up to lead the reform, and concurrently, the rebellion known as the Peasants' War was making its way across Germany...."

http://www.history.com/topics/martin-luther-and-the-95-theses

Almost a century later, these events culminated in the Thirty Years War, when Sweden, France, Spain and Austria all waged campaigns -- mostly on German soil -- that redrew the religious and political map of central Europe.

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Guest Judas Machabeus
17 hours ago, Willa said:

The 66 books of the Bible, the New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament, are the only ones acknowledged by Protestants.  Others contain obvious error.  The only way to return to the teaching of the first century church is to return to Scripture Sola.  

The leaders of the Catholic Church have ignored salvation by grace through faith being a gift from God.  They require works dictated by their church as needed for salvation.  They claimed salvation by faith alone was a new teaching!  False !  

Oral traditions were no longer a need after the Bible was written.  Sticking to the Bible keeps us from wandering into the traditions of men and myths, like the Roman church has done.

 Christ is/was a Rabbi, but is also God in human flesh, the Word made flesh.   

Quote

The 66 books of the Bible, the New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament, are the only ones acknowledged by Protestants.  Others contain obvious error.  The only way to return to the teaching of the first century church is to return to Scripture Sola.  

The apostles used the Septuagint as scripture, the septuagint is quoted 80% of the time in the NT, and when the canon was closed it was closed using the Septuagint scripture. The septuagint was the OT canon for 1500 yrs until and disgruntled catholic monk decided he knew better than the Holy Spirit. If you are going to reject the Catholic canon than you must reject the entire canon because it was the Catholic canon upon which the Holy Spirit closed the canon. As for Sola Scriptura... that is a man made tradition again created by a disgruntled catholic monk.

Quote

The leaders of the Catholic Church have ignored salvation by grace through faith being a gift from God.  They require works dictated by their church as needed for salvation.  They claimed salvation by faith alone was a new teaching!  False !  

 Actually your statement is false. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

I. JUSTIFICATION

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

Quote

Oral traditions were no longer a need after the Bible was written.  Sticking to the Bible keeps us from wandering into the traditions of men and myths, like the Roman church has done.

No where in scripture does it say Oral traditions are no longer needed. ACTUALLY if you want to stick to the bible it says the opposite about Oral Tadition.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

So sticking to the bible, it teaches to stand firm to traditions taught by spoken word. So if you are going to claim that we no longer need to follow a teaching that`s taught in the bible than I think you ought to provide the scripture passage that says as much. As for 2 Timothy 3:16 is often cited as the champion of sola scripture lets take a look at what it actually says.

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

All Scripture is breathed out by God... I agree.... and PROFITABLE for teaching.......

the greek word here is ophelimos meaning helpful or serviceable, ie advantageous:-profit (-able)

2 Tim 3:16 is in no way putting scripture over any other form of teaching. It`s simply giving teaching authority to scripture. It`s not taking away any authority from the Apostles or Oral teachings.

 

12 hours ago, brakelite said:

Certainly, although such a concept was unknown to me in my early years.

It is based on the misconception that the woman spoken of in Genesis 3:15 refers to Mary, whereas correct exegesis and understanding correct symbolism in prophecy  reveals that the woman spoken of here is representative of the church. This error within Catholic thinking is repeated in Revelation 12 and Revelation 17. The woman in Revelation 12 being the true church, the harlot representative of an apostate church.

I see no purpose in going further. If the foundation or root is error, the fruits will be also.

Um well that explains co-mediatrix perfectly clear... I was being sarcastic in case that didn`t come through the text. I would like to say that my suspisions were correct. You don`t have any idea what it means, and you`ve probably just be told its bad and should reject it. 

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