Jesus' Return II

[fixerupper]

43 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Sorry old mate, but Enoch is in Heaven, Abraham, Moses, King David, the repentant thief to name but a few;

Hebrews 11:5, By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

Elijah is in Heaven;

2 Kings 2:1, And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

When Christ rose from the dead and returned to the Father He led all those who were held in Paradise, Abraham, Moses, King David, the repentant thief, and all who died in Christ while the devil had the keys to Hell.

Ephesians 4:8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity2 captive, and gave gifts unto men.

What Jesus was saying in John 3:13, was that no man has ascended into Heaven by their own power, and not taken up as was Enoch (Gen. 5:24; Hebrews 11:5), Elijah (2 Kings 2:11), Paul (2 Corinthians 12:1-3). and John Rev. 4:1)

Jesus ascended and led captivity captive to Heaven and came back and appeared to His disciples including Thomas who doubted, before His final ascension to Heaven to stay (John 10:17).

 

So what are you saying?  They were raised with Christ and those that have died since Christ are in paradise awaiting the resurrection.

[HAZARD]

3 hours ago, fixerupper said:

So what are you saying?  They were raised with Christ and those that have died since Christ are in paradise awaiting the resurrection.

No Enoch, and Elijah were translated, those in paradise, where Jesus said He and the repentant thief would be: Luke 23:43,And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." on that day, where Abraham, David, Moses and all those who died before Jesus died for our sins, they were taken to Heaven when Jesus rose from the dead and went to the Father.

The saints here on Earth alive to day will be raptured out of this world before the tribulation.

[fixerupper]

6 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

No Enoch, and Elijah were translated, those in paradise, where Jesus said He and the repentant this would be on that day, which included Abraham, David, Moses and all those who died before Jesus died for our sins, they were taken to Heaven when Jesus rose from the dead and went to the Father.

The saints here on Earth alive to day will be raptured out of this world before the tribulation.

OK...but this rapture before tribulation stuff????  Makes the rapture look more like a terror attack!

[HAZARD]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

OK...but this rapture before tribulation stuff????  Makes the rapture look more like a terror attack!

 

No terror attack at all. There is a valid reason for it as the Scriptures clearly express. The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.
The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.
The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.
At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.
At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 

No terror attack at all. There is a valid reason for it as the Scriptures clearly express. The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.
The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.
The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.
At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.
At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

 

They hear these people preach these theories of all kind of off centered doctrine, it sounds good. Then they try to fit scriptures to their beliefs. You have to go in to all of your research/SEARCHING GOD OUT, by having a heart and mind that says, show me God, your ways, your ideas, your understandings. And God will teach you. Too many people nowadays get seduced by doctrines of men, and then all of scriptures they read they have to twist and mold to their beliefs. When a Christian of over 30 years tries to warn them, that's not the way, their pride kicks in, they can't accept any advice it seems, at least that's what I discover on the Message boards and on Disqus. At Church they want to soak up the information. 

They get taught that the Rapture had its origins in the 1800's, which is nonsense of course, and no matter how many facts you lay out they aren't hearing it. "We have to be tested and earn our way to Heaven they say."

Then they say but your "MENTORS" are the Left Behind Guys.......I never read one of their books or watched a movie, I never worried about when the Rapture was for 25 years, I decided one day to investigate, with a blank mind because it seemed the Church had a great divide (a least 20 percent) and the post side had many valid points. So I went forth with no preference, and the Scripture pointed me to a Rapture in MULTIPLE WAYS, but the #1 Clincher was Rev. 19. We can not be in Heaven, Marry the Lamb, and Return with Jesus Christ where the Anti-Christ, his Kings and their Armies await us, without a Rapture. Its just impossible. From that point on I then proceeded to find out why the jargon the post-tribbers had seemed so correct to many was in fact off-centered or just plain WRONG. 

What I found out was pretty much everyone of their arguments either twisted or misconstrued a verse/passage or they just misunderstood the passage, which had been passed down by the "TEACHERS" of this doctrines.  Things like IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, had been looked at wrong, see Rev. 19, of course Jesus comes back Immediately after the Tribulation, BUT with the Church in tow, just like Rev. 19 says. But they are not going to look at Rev. 19 like I did and see that God has given us the proper tools to understand what happens, they already have their answers.

1 Corinthians 15.......2 Thess. 2.........Matthew 24 and we have many other clues. But we have to go into anything with God with a blank mind, He will lead us the in the right direction.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Revelation Man

[wingnut-]

18 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

They hear these people preach these theories of all kind off centered doctrine, it sounds good.

 

This is a ridiculous claim.  First of all, I have never heard anyone preach this, ever.  The only thing I have ever heard preached is pre-trib, not one church I have ever attended preached anything else.  Second off, it doesn't sound good at all, but it is the truth. 

[Sister]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

We can not be in Heaven, Marry the Lamb, and Return with Jesus Christ where the Anti-Christ, his Kings and their Armies await us, without a Rapture. Its just impossible.

Revelation Man

Do you see something here?

 Revelation 20:1   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

 Revelation 20:2   And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 Revelation 20:3   And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

  Revelation 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

or this;

 Isaiah 63:1   Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

  Isaiah 63:2   Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

  Isaiah 63:3   I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

  Isaiah 63:4   For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

  Isaiah 63:5   And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

 

or this;

 Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

 Matthew 25:31   When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

  Mark 8:38   Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

 

 Luke 9:26   For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

 

 2 Thessalonians 1:7   And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[Swords99]

9 hours ago, Keras said:

Did you dream this or did some false teacher fool you into believing it?  Because such a thing isn't Biblical and is simply impossible. John 3:13

God will come to dwell on earth, as He did Adams day; after the Millennium, when Jesus hands the Kingdom to the Father. 1 Cor 15:24

But 1000 years before that, Jesus will physically Return and reign for the Millennium. Acts 1:11

It's in the Scriptures.

[fixerupper]

Quote

No terror attack at all. There is a valid reason for it as the Scriptures clearly express. The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them.

So God is going to remove Christians and kill people in the process?  How counter productive.  Most sensesible people would call that a terror attack.  
I don't think you understand the purpose of God in saving people. You're trying to say that the rapture is God's purpose for saving people and that's just way off the mark.  You people completely disregard good exegesis and have fallen for the most widely held, deceitful, fabricated false doctrine that has ever entered the Church.  Pre-trib contradictions and fabrications are endless.  

[fixerupper]

17 hours ago, Swords99 said:

Born again Christians will be raptured before the tribulation.

Do you care about truth?   

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.  This passage alone thoroughly debunks pre-tribulationism.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

While you're at it lets get to the crux of the matter.  If pre-trib is the sensasional event you all claim it to be, then surely, there must be at least ONE verse that clearly states Jesus returns BEFORE the tribulation.  Can any of you pre-tribbers quote ONE?  Now I know that pre-tribbers are better fabricators than interpreters, so do your best.  Don't just quote any scripture dealing with Christ return.  Show me ONE that shows he returns BEFORE the tribulation. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by fixerupper