Post-Trib, Post-Wrath Rapture = second coming

[BobRyan]

On 8/9/2017 at 10:44 AM, Rick_Parker said:

Once again, this is not a literal interpretation of Scripture. Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, is for the Jews, not the Church

That suggestion does not survive the details in Matt 24. Noah's flood as mentioned in Matt 24 "was not just for Jews" - and the end of the world.. the second coming that it describes is not "Just for Jews" any more than John 14:1-3 "I will come again and receive you to myself" is --- "just for Jews."

John 17 - Christ's prayer specifically says his teaching was not "just for Jews". So also the Matt 28 great commission to teach all the world what He had taught them "not just for Jews"

Bible details matter.

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as Paul teaches a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Not true at all. In 2 Thess 2:1-10 Paul is specific about a post-trib rapture.

 

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Plenty of Scripture evidence has been posted in innumerable threads so I'm not going to repeat them here.

Your suggestions so far - don't seem to be holding up to the test of scripture.

 

On 8/10/2017 at 11:34 AM, Rick_Parker said:

I may have been misunderstood. This is a very important issue. 2 days before the cross 4 disciples came to Jesus with 3 questions. They were prompted by one of the disciples commenting on the beauty of the Temple and Jesus predicting its destruction.

The questions were:
1. When will this happen (the Temple’s destruction)?
2. What will be the signs of your (2nd) coming?
3. What will be the signs of the end of the age?

Their mindset in asking these questions is critical to our understanding.

Agreed. They leave nothing out.

Peter says in 1 Peter 1:13 " ¹³ Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. "

Paul says in 1 Thess 4 "¹³ But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. ¹⁴ For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. ¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The entire focus of the first century church was on this point.

On 8/10/2017 at 11:34 AM, Rick_Parker said:

While the Jews were in Babylon during the 70 year captivity, the angel Gabriel had told Daniel that Israel would be given 490 years from the date they received authorization to rebuild Jerusalem to wrap everything up. (Daniel 9:24-27) 483 of those years had past.

True. And as we see in Daniel 9:1-8 all Bible timelines are internally contiguous. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Daniel 9 are fully contiguous. No slicing and dicing them up. Same with the 70 weeks of apocalyptic day-for-year timeline. So then 490 contiguous years - in a 70 week .. 490days = 490 year timeline. Points to the coming of Christ in A.D. 27 after 483 years and then Christ is "cut off" in the midst of that next week -- 31A.D. crucifixion. And then the gospel goes to the gentiles 34 A.D. at the completion of that 490 year timeline.

Has nothing to do with Matthew 24 however.

On 8/10/2017 at 11:34 AM, Rick_Parker said:

As I noted in my study on the Olivet Discourse Matthew’s account is especially Jewish, warning people in Judea, invoking Jewish Sabbath Laws

"From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

"the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

 "this is the NEW Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel and the house of Judah..." Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:10

"He is not a Jew who is one outwardly neither is circumcision of the flesh" - Romans 2

1. the future events of Matt 24 regarding events after Christ's death - were important to ALL Christians. Not "Just Jews".

2. The New Covenant is for "all Christians" -- and "not just Jews"

3. God's "elect" in Matt  24 refers to "all Christians" -- and "not just Jews". No NT writing speaking after Christ had gone to heaven said "the elect are just Jews".

4. The idea that the Matt 24 text is not applicable to Christians because Christians would have been raptured before that .. is an "insert" into the text that exegesis will not support.

[Daniel 11:36]

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the coming tribulation

[BobRyan]

On 8/12/2017 at 10:40 AM, Daniel 11:36 said:

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the coming tribulation

That does not appear to be the case - There is no "second coming just for Jews"

John 14:1-3 "I will come again and receive you to Myself in order that - WHERE I am there you may be also"

 

Matt 24

Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. ² And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.

³ As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

(Nothing there about "second coming just for Jews", not about "your coming just for Jews", nothing about "End  of age - just for Jews")

Matt 24

⁷ For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. ⁸ But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

⁹ “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. ¹⁰ At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. ¹¹ Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. ¹² Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. ¹³ But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. ¹⁴ This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Nothing there about (Gospel preached to end of world then will the end for Jews come).

Nothing there about "Gospel preached just for Jews... then for just the Jews the end will come)

Matt 24:14 "all nations" not -- "Just Jews".

 

¹⁵ “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), ¹⁶ then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. ¹⁸ Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. ¹⁹ But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! ²⁰ But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. ²² Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. ²³ Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. ²⁴ For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. ²⁵ Behold, I have told you in advance. ²⁶ So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. ²⁷ For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

No secret rapture. because in this text - 2nd coming is seen by all mankind.

 

 

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

Sign of Son of man -- appears in the sky ... "not just the sky above Jews).

"ALL tribes fo the earth shall mourn" -- not 'just Jews'

 

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Thess 4

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. ¹⁸ Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by BobRyan

[OldCoot]

On 8/10/2017 at 10:41 AM, Rick_Parker said:

But Paul spoke of a rebellion (falling away) in 2 Thes 2:3 that would have to precede the Day of the Lord.  The Greek word translated rebellion is apostasia, from which we get apostasy.  It means people would abandon something they once considered themselves to be part of and the context implies that it’s the church.  You can’t fall away from something unless you first think of yourself as being part of it.   But true believers can’t fall away at all.  Therefore this rebellion or apostasy has to involve those who thought of themselves as being part of the church, but weren’t really saved.

 

That has been the general consensus... after the KJV came on the scene and later translators.  But most english bibles before the KJV translated apostasia as "the departure", "a departure", or simply "departure".  Geneva Bible, Wycliff Bible, etc.  The Latin Vulgate uses the word discessio, which also means departure.  For apostasia to legitimately be translated as falling away, there has to be definite article in the context that shows what is being fallen away from.  Like here....

Acts 21:21 (NKJV) but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

the Greek word "forsake" is translated from is apostasia.  and the definite article is Moses (the Law).  In this context, apostasia is rightfully translated as falling away or departing from the Law.  In 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it stands all alone and can only be simply "departure".

[Daniel 11:36]

"That does not appear to be the case - There is no "second coming just for Jews"

 

In this case Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the coming tribulation period

 

[Fred Eans]

Consensus is hogwash.  There is no rapture period.  Two in the field, one is taken by the antiChrist Satan.  The one left are  servants of God who will help Him bring this age to an end.  Don't say he needs no help.  Hr has saved a remnant...A 144,000 will be sealed...

[Fred Eans]

I can not be more clear than I have been.  The word rapture is man's invention when his imagination got too much of him.  The end time progression is also very clear.  Jesus would be defeating his own purpose by taking believers out of the world.  Jesus, when he comes brings all of the deceased believers with him.  Those are the clouds we see him coming in.  The tribulation is only 5 months long, and Satan uses much of it having trials for those believing servants that are hear.  When the two witnesses are killed, three and one half days later, the end (Christ) comes.  Get with it the end times are supported in the minor prophets.  Thessalonians is an attempt by Paul to clear up this very problem.  The rapture was not spoken of until 1832.  Those who depend on the convenience of a rapture have their house built on sand.

[Fred Eans]

I lost my last.  Caught up means to seize, catch away, take by force.  Not to take up into the sky.  We are changed into spiritual bodies and meet Jesus in his return.  Rapture is the imagination of men that began in 1832.  I will not speak to out bursts.  Thessalonians was Paul's attempt to clear this very thing.  Believers in rapture do not believe in the Word, they need an easy ticket and their isn't one.  A doctrine must be supported through out.  Study the minor prophets.  The two witnesses are killed and three and one half days later the end comes.  Why are Satan's trials a mainstream of this 5 month period if their are no believers.  I cannot help you any more than this.

[Fred Eans]

Too bad how can the entirety of God's plan create a wrong mindset?  Believe what you want, won't you beg surprised.

[Keras]

13 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

Scripture is clear on the fact that the Lord will come for His own in the Rapture. Folks here at Worthy may not agree on the timing of it, but there is Scriptural evidence of a Rapture, as has already been posted numerous times in several threads.

It is unfortunate that there is dissention among Christians over this issue of a 'rapture'. 

Firstly; whether we are raptured or not: it isn't a salvation issue. 

What needs to be clarified, is where are we raptured to?  The main scripture that does actually tell of a 'catching up', is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. That prophecy does not mention heaven as the destination and as Jesus has just come from heaven, then those who remain will meet Him in the clouds, then be with Him where He is; that will be in Jerusalem, as He commences His Millennium reign. 

Nowhere else in the Bible is any other 'catching up' of a group mentioned. The ones 'taken and others left' of Matthew 24:40-41, is in the context of Noah's flood, Matthew 24:37-39, and there; the ungodly were destroyed and Noah and his family were kept safe in the protection that God had told them to build. This is a lesson for us to be prepared for the Lord's terrible Day of wrath. Isaiah 26:20-21

As for anyone going to live in heaven, Jesus totally refutes that idea: John 3:13, John 7:34, John 8:2-23, Revelation 5:10. +