Apostles and Prophets

[missmuffet]

20 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Enoob,

Now you know that I will not agree TO disagree, but I do see THAT we disagree on this subject, but know that as we both keep open to the Holy Spirit He will clarify this truth to each of us.

be blessed, bro, Marilyn.

I support enoob on this topic.

[firestormx]

50 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

The ascension ministries are not something someone can aspire to. Christ gifts the person who is the Evangel, the good Shepherd, the teacher, the prophet, the Apostle. They have a part of Christ`s headship ministries and each part helps build up the Body of Christ, by His Holy Spirit, to maturity in Him.

You made a very interesting point with this I thought. It caused me to go look up the verses which led me to a question or 2. I will post the verses below and then my questions.

Ephesians 4:8-13

8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also firstdescended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

 

my questions

1.  How come evangelists pastors and teachers from this same list or considered offices but not Apostles or Prophets?

2. Since he didn't give these offices until his ascension, how could walking with him in his earthly ministry be a requirement for any of them if he didn't give them until he ascended to heaven?

[firestormx]

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul  heard this.....` (Acts 14: 14) 

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

`Paul, Silvanas, and Timothy.....we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.   (1 Thess. 1: 1,   2: 6)

 

I saw this posted in another post and had a question or two about it. What are biblical evidence and/or hermeneutics used to determine these people were a different kind of Apostle than Paul?  Clearly, they were not one of the 12 but Scripture clearly calls them Apostles.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Enoob,

Now you know that I will not agree TO disagree, but I do see THAT we disagree on this subject, but know that as we both keep open to the Holy Spirit He will clarify this truth to each of us.

be blessed, bro, Marilyn.

love you also Sis, Steven

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, firestormx said:

You made a very interesting point with this I thought. It caused me to go look up the verses which led me to a question or 2. I will post the verses below and then my questions.

Ephesians 4:8-13

8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also firstdescended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

 

my questions

1.  How come evangelists pastors and teachers from this same list or considered offices but not Apostles or Prophets?

2. Since he didn't give these offices until his ascension, how could walking with him in his earthly ministry be a requirement for any of them if he didn't give them until he ascended to heaven?

Hi firestormx,

Glad to see you are looking into this topic carefully and you have some good questions. I will share what I believe and for you to think upon.

Now we know that our Lord said that He would send His Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. (John 16: 13) And we also know that the Apostle Paul said that `savage wolves` would come in among the flock. (Acts 20: 29 & 30) They would speak `perverse things.` We see that today also.

1. Now you may be too young to remember but back in the `50`s & `60`s there was an emphasis by the Holy Spirit on Evangelists.  remember Billy Graham as a good example. Then in the `70`s the emphasis was on shepherds. (Note always the false with the true as the enemy is still at work deceiving). Then in the `80`s teachers abounded - eg. Derek Prince. Later in the `90`s we see across the Body a great interest in the prophetic and now in the new century 2000 + the interest is in the Apostolic, - Apostles and apostolic doctrine.

So we can see a pattern by the Holy Spirit of bringing these ministries to the fore so that the Body of Christ can recognise them. Hope that gives a bit more clarity to your first question.

2. The first 12 Apostles were given a specific ministry (Acts 1: 25) `to take part in this ministry and apostleship.`  So what was that specific ministry? - to witness of Christ`s life and resurrection to the people of Israel especially. Thus that requirement.

`Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.` (Acts 2: 36)

The ascension ministries however have another ministry which is to build up the Body of Christ.

`And He gave some.......for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the Body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect (mature) man...` (Eph. 4: 11 - 13) 

More than ever we can see the need of the whole 5 fold ministries to bring the Body of Christ to maturity of the unity of the faith. We, by the Holy Spirit have come a long way over the centuries, however this last part of coming to the whole truth, the whole counsel of God, will be a great battle, as the enemy will not want the Body of Christ to come to maturity as we will be judging him and the world system as well. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

regards, Marilyn. 

[Marilyn C]

50 minutes ago, firestormx said:

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul  heard this.....` (Acts 14: 14) 

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

`Paul, Silvanas, and Timothy.....we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.   (1 Thess. 1: 1,   2: 6)

 

I saw this posted in another post and had a question or two about it. What are biblical evidence and/or hermeneutics used to determine these people were a different kind of Apostle than Paul?  Clearly, they were not one of the 12 but Scripture clearly calls them Apostles.

Hi firestormx,

Another good question. I hope I can clarify it. There are `signs` of an Apostle, and the `seal` of Apostleship. I have my pastor`s book (who was recognised as an Apostle) from the `50`s & `60`s - Ps. W.A.C. Rowe. He and his family came from England to build up the Apostolic work in Australia. The movement came from the Welsh revival and is NOT the NAR, which is false.

I will go and prepare some notes from his book on theology, on those topics.

regards, Marilyn.

[Willa]

On 8/28/2017 at 10:03 AM, Reinitin said:

lol.. I breed, train and show reining cow horses. 

We up north have quarter horses that work with riders and dogs to herd cattle.  It is a beautiful thing to watch.  We stopped beside the road to watch the real thing--not a rodeo--working in sync.  Amazing.  

[Willa]

I have also only seen the false.  A couple came to our church and she told me that they were apostles, so they had authority over our pastor!  God did humble them through a terrible accident that caused him brain damage, but left him with a wonderful gift of ministry through music and left her caring for him.  

I think what Marilyn would call an apostle is what I call a missionary.   Semantics.  I tend to agree that the 12 apostles are those who were with the Lord from the beginning, from the time of John the Baptist.  The word means ambassadors  or sent ones from what I remember.  So others may be sent by the Lord but not what I would call one of the 12 apostles.  Many have had respected ministries in other nations, and over the years they have been from many denominations.  I thank God for giving them the boldness to obey God and go where He has led.

[firestormx]

3 minutes ago, Willa said:

I have also only seen the false.  A couple came to our church and she told me that they were apostles, so they had authority over our pastor!  God did humble them through a terrible accident that caused him brain damage, but left him with a wonderful gift of ministry through music and left her caring for him.  

I think what Marilyn would call an apostle is what I call a missionary.   Semantics.  I tend to agree that the 12 apostles are those who were with the Lord from the beginning, from the time of John the Baptist.  The word means ambassadors  or sent ones from what I remember.  So others may be sent by the Lord but not what I would call one of the 12 apostles.  Many have had respected ministries in other nations, and over the years they have been from many denominations.  I thank God for giving them the boldness to obey God and go where He has led.

Thank you sharing your thoughts on this

[Marilyn C]

The Signs of Apostleship

`Truly the signs of an Apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.` (2 Cor. 12: 12)

Signs are the visible indications of invisible realities. Cause has its effect; substance has its sign. Signs are the words of a special language. Words indicate hidden thought; signs point to unseen realities. It is imperative to learn the vocabulary and grammar of the sign language with which we are dealing. One may require another for its identification and confirmation.

 

The power-sign for instance may have a divine or Satanic origin. (Acts 2: 43;  2 Thess. 2: 9) So with the power-sign God gives a love-sign of divine purpose. The one identifies and confirms the other. Others may have spiritually mastered the sign-language and have passed on a keen and certain apprehension by faith of the things of God.

 

To the initiated a single little bird may give in advance a sure knowledge of a glorious summer on the way. We can speak of a `straw in the wind.` We learn by straws, but we can pass on to know the direction of the wind without them. The right understanding of signs and abilities of faith unveil for us the unseen realities of God. We have found that Apostleship is needed today and that it is Scripturally provided for. Now we seek to interpret the signs.