Rapture thoughts

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

Good. Very good. Progress. Finally. Now we can move into this question, where would you put this event in the unpublished chronology of the end times?

Revelation 19:9 (KJV)
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The Jews believe in seven heavens... which is why the word is always plural. (My own rabbit trail... do not follow please, just answer my question.)

Shalom, Abdicate.

The marriage supper of the Lamb would be at the beginning of His Kingdom here on this earth (the second earth and the second heaven) within the early years of the Millennium. It will occur when the King, Yeshua` God's Mashiyach, has been installed ... where He belongs!

Regarding the plurality of hashaamayim, there are THREE numbers in Hebrew: The masculine form has the singular (no ending) and plural (the "-iym" ending), but it also has the dual (the "-ayim" ending). Hashaamayim is in the dual number. It's simple really. It's not seven; it's two, the day sky and the night sky.

[Keras]

16 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Rabbit trail much?

Since none of you nay sayers have yet to answer my simple question, I pose it to you too. What word do you choose to call the event that Paul describes here?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What word for this event?

 

The right interpretation for 'harpazo' in this verse is: Transportation.  

Paul is describing here that Jesus will bring the souls of the dead martyrs with Him at His Return and those in Christ who remain alive, [after the Great Tribulation and persecution by the Anti-Christ] will be gathered to Him. Just as Matthew 24:30-31 describe.   This gathering will be like the spiritual transportation that Philip experienced. Acts 8:39

Thinking that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is about a rapture to heaven, is quite illogical and contrary to a plain reading of how Jesus leaves heaven, meets His own people and then commences His Millennial reign. 

[Retrobyter]

35 minutes ago, Keras said:

The right interpretation for 'harpazo' in this verse is: Transportation.  

Paul is describing here that Jesus will bring the souls of the dead martyrs with Him at His Return and those in Christ who remain alive, [after the Great Tribulation and persecution by the Anti-Christ] will be gathered to Him. Just as Matthew 24:30-31 describe.   This gathering will be like the spiritual transportation that Philip experienced. Acts 8:39

Thinking that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is about a rapture to heaven, is quite illogical and contrary to a plain reading of how Jesus leaves heaven, meets His own people and then commences His Millennial reign. 

Shalom, Keras.

I'm prone to agree with you with the minor adjustment that ... there IS NO "heaven" that Yeshua` leaves. He leaves the New Jerusalem that is currently under HIS construction (as the Master Carpenter and Co-Creator). Remember: He travels THROUGH the "heaven" - the "sky" - to accomplish His mission to "meet His own people and then commence His Millennial reign." Oh, and don't forget, too, that the Millennium is just the FIRST 1000 years of His reign:

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
 

[Keras]

9 hours ago, Abdicate said:

So how is this "comfort one another with these words" if it means, "after your wholesale slaughter by the Antichrist"? When you throw in jabs like "quite illogical and contrary" you cheapen your stance and resort to bashing instead of encouragement. Your conclusion is different than others and rather than accept that, you resort to insults. But to each their own. Thanks for the answer.

I understand how upset rapture believers get when confronted by the truth, as they realize their belief has no scriptural support. Believing anything that is illogical to a plain understanding, or contrary to what is Written, is a bad mistake and leaves you in the dark about what God actually does plan for His people. 

Re 'wholesale slaughter', this is another false impression of what happens during the Great Tribulation. Note in Revelation 12:5-17, where the 'woman', who plainly represents every faithful Christian, is taken to a place of safety and the rest of her brethren are persecuted: verse 17, but from other prophesies, we see that God can and will protect His own.  We CAN comfort one another with all the Words of scripture!

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Why? What scripture do you have to support this timing?

Shalom, Abdicate.

It's probably one you've read a thousand times and never thought of it this way. It's actually in the Scriptures THREE times because of the Synoptic Gospels reporting the same event from three points of view:

First, just by way of reminder, wine is important to a Jewish wedding:

John 2:1-11
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted (lacked) wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
KJV

So, it is significant when Yeshua` said,

Matthew 26:27-29
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
KJV

Mark 14:23-25
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
KJV

Luke 22:17-18
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
KJV

While some believe that the Kingdom of God is in "Heaven," notice that Luke sets the record straight: "until the Kingdom of God SHALL COME!"

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

So, it is significant when Yeshua` said,

Matthew 26:27-29
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
KJV

Mark 14:23-25
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
KJV

Luke 22:17-18
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
KJV

While some believe that the Kingdom of God is in "Heaven," notice that Luke sets the record straight: "until the Kingdom of God SHALL COME!"

Hi Retro,

Always good to know who the Lord is talking to bro.

regards, Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/3/2017 at 7:40 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Always good to know who the Lord is talking to bro.

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Okay, I'll bite: What do you mean by this statement? At first, I'll admit, I took it as a compliment: "Always good (for me) to know who (Retro) the Lord is talking to, bro'." After some thought, though, I've reconsidered: "Always good (for you, Retro) to know who (the disciples) the Lord is talking to, bro'." So, what's your point?

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Okay, I'll bite: What do you mean by this statement? At first, I'll admit, I took it as a compliment: "Always good (for me) to know who (Retro) the Lord is talking to, bro'." After some thought, though, I've reconsidered: "Always good (for you, Retro) to know who (the disciples) the Lord is talking to, bro'." So, what's your point?

Hi Retro,

Always good to discuss with you bro. And yes my statement could have been taken both ways. This is what caught my eye, & really I am interjecting here on your discussion with Abdicate. However as you know I do love God`s word regarding eschatology. This is your statement -

While some believe that the Kingdom of God is in "Heaven," notice that Luke sets the record straight: "until the Kingdom of God SHALL COME!"

So we know the word `kingdom` means `rule.` Thus the Lord is talking to the people of Israel concerning His rulership coming to them, as you rightly said, (I believe) in the millennium. As the Lord is referring to His rulership on earth, that does not exclude His rulership elsewhere in His great dominion.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Keras]

It is very sad that there is such a proliferation of theories and ideas about what will happen in the last days. This is actually a strong indication of who it is that causes these disagreement and arguments: the author of lies, the great deceiver must be behind most, if not all of it.
Jesus warned us to be not deceived; Matthew 24:4, so we know it can happen! Has any of us never been fooled? We are all suckers for a good deal or investment, but if it is too good to be true; then it probably isn't true!

The idea of a rapture removal to heaven before disaster strikes, is a prime example and when this and other things like prosperity theology are preached and taught by people of high standing, it's no wonder that many are led to believe those teachings. People fail to check their Bibles for proof that what they have been told, is really what the Lord has planned.
What we Christians are plainly told, is that we can expect trials and testing, 1 Peter 3:12, and we must endure and stand strong in our faith. Revelation 13:9-10

HOWEVER, if good Christian people have believed a wrong teaching about what the Lord will do for them, this is not a salvation issue. PROVIDED; they do not lose their faith that He will save them.
This is where, unfortunately, so many will fall away when the test comes. What they expected won't happen and they will renounce God, to their eternal loss.

 

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Keras said:

HOWEVER, if good Christian people have believed a wrong teaching about what the Lord will do for them, this is not a salvation issue. PROVIDED; they do not lose their faith that He will save them.
This is where, unfortunately, so many will fall away when the test comes. What they expected won't happen and they will renounce God, to their eternal loss.

 

I agree.  That's why I keep reiterating that its a matter of lifestyle worship.  Those who put into practice the teachings of Jesus build their house on the rock.  They are who Jesus calls wise.  The wise will be ready.  The foolish will not.