pretrib Timing of the Rapture

[Omegaman 3.0]

I probable should get bogged down in this, but I feel compelled to, so how can I not?

If any of the apostles of other New Testament writers, where expecting that Jesus could return at any moment, then there could be an issue. However, there is a difference in any moment, and the possibility that it could happen within their own lifetimes. I suspect many thought that was perhaps possible.

They were aware of signs to look for at the end of the age, see Matt 24. They also knew from that sequence, that there was to come a time of great tribulation, and Jesus said Daniel spoke of. The also know, from what Jesus said in Matt 24, the He would return after that tribulation. They had no reason to believe from that discourse, that He would also come for believers prior to that tribulation.

Also, included in that discourse (continued in Matt 25), is the wedding feast, that many pre-trib believers think, pictures the rapture of the church, it is possible that it does. However, that passage begins with the word "Then".

Then implies that at that time, or subsequent to something that He just spoke to, precedes this feast. So, backing up to what Jesus just said, the event described before the "then", we see:

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now, that describes the only coming, that Jesus ever specifically mentioned - His appearance, His coming to be present (parousia), and He mentioned nothing about returning for the church beforehand. In fact, that passage mentions His coming in the clouds to gather His elect to join Him, sounds a lot like rapture language to me, and that is, I think, His intention. He gathers his chosen, that THEN descends to earth with them, just as many other passages describe.

I am getting a bit off track from my intention, let me get back on course:

Did the NT writers think that Jesus could return at any moment? I doubt it. Peter said that Jesus could not leave Heaven, at that time (Acts 3:19-21).

Peter also knew, according to John, from the mouth of Jesus, that Peter was to die, with his arms outstretched. So, as long as Peter was alive, the church could not be raptured.

There there is the notion of the diciples going out into all the world, to preach the gospel. Jesus said that, not only in the great commision, but in Matt 24 He said:

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

It is the church, the disciples whose job it is to go "throughout the whole world", before the end. Of courses, the disciples did not know how far the world extended, but they knew they had not reached it yet. Therefore, the time of the end, was still a bit off at least. In hindsight, we realize that Jesus would not return, before the exploration of the New World, so He was not coming back in the first 1500 years of the church.

His imminent return, is a truth, it is imminent, when all of the things prophecied about it, have happened. One of those things, was the necessity of the existence of the land of Israel, and it'c control of the Jews, not the time of the gentiles. How else would the temple events, for the anti-Christ's appearance, to which Jesus and Paul spoke occur? Israel returned to that map as a nation, in 1948, so His coming was not to be before then, and therefore, was not imminent until at least the 20th Century. 

Of course the rebirth of the nation of Israel, stirred up all sort of interest in end time prophecy again, and that led to a huge rise in the popularity of pre-trib though, even non-believes were paying attention, thanks to the false prophecies of Hal Lindsey, and the popular rise on the Calvary Chapel denomination (which I like, by the way).

Personally, I think between the pronouncements of Paul, and the descriptions of John in the book of revelation, there will me no rapture until after the resurrection of beleivers, specifically said to be after the tribulation. So, in my opinion, Jesus will not return tomorrow, it is not that imminent, but His imminent return could happen in our lifetimes, or maybe it is another millennia or two away.

Another thing, I really wish people would stop trying to make the Bible say that no one knows the day or the hour. Stop taking that out of context, and stop making it say more than it does to make in fit your beliefs, that is very irresponsible.

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Another thing, I really wish people would stop trying to make the Bible say that no one knows the day or the hour. Stop taking that out of context, and stop making it say more than it does to make in fit your beliefs, that is very irresponsible.

Hi Omegaman,

I so agree that it is not correct to say that we, the Body of Christ will not know the day or hour.

Now that the Lord has ascended and is glorified, seated at the right hand of the Father, we hear Him say, by His Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul -

`But, you, Brethren, are NOT in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

`....exhorting each other, and SO MUCH THE MORE as you SEE the day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

 

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 minute ago, Marilyn C said:

Now that the Lord has ascended and is glorified, seated at the right hand of the Father, we hear Him say, by His Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul -

`But, you, Brethren, are NOT in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

Hmm, exactly right. When Jesus spoke those words, it was a different time then, and not said as a future continuation. Also, the context of that is not speaking to the rapture anyway. "Of that time", means the time He was describing!

 

[Marilyn C]

Just now, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Hmm, exactly right. When Jesus spoke those words, it was a different time then, and not said as a future continuation. Also, the context of that is not speaking to the rapture anyway. "Of that time", means the time He was describing!

 

I agree Omegaman that the Lord was not talking as regards the rapture but the Day of the Lord, with the tribulation.

Marilyn.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Well, lol, I am happy to agree back!

[Marilyn C]

13 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Well, lol, I am happy to agree back!

 Glad we can agree there bro. Making progress ay.

[Omegaman 3.0]

See, this is how it is supposed to work, exchange ideas and understanding, without being enemies!

 

 

[Marilyn C]

3 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

See, this is how it is supposed to work, exchange ideas and understanding, without being enemies!

 

 

That`s so right Omega, line upon line, bit by bit, trying to understand each other. If we get the truths we agree on then we can work from there. I think most of the time we (people in general) rush to the end part & thus there is no connection as to the truths built upon. Defending the views behind the barricades as it were, afraid to come out & really discuss the foundations of the particular belief.

Anyway, nice to join hands at this point, bro, Marilyn.

[OneLight]

I can only be reminded once more of the timing of the event will be at the last trumpet, so once again I remind the readers. 

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Since scripture backs up scripture, I also give you 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, OneLight said:

I can only be reminded once more of the timing of the event will be at the last trumpet, so once again I remind the readers. 

1 Corinthians 15:51-53

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Since scripture backs up scripture, I also give you 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Hi OneLight,

The `last` depends on what sequence of things you are taking about - 7th (last)trumpet call of God to the wicked, or the last trumpet call to the Body of Christ. Definitely not the same.

regards, Marilyn.