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Dennis1209

Timing of the Rapture

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No one knows the day nor the hour of our catching away. To keep my comments as brief as possible I'm omitting supporting scripture.

The Lord could have come for his church at anytime from the day of His ascension, and there are no preconditions or prophecy that needs to be fulfilled. With that factual statement, and a pretribulational Rapture viewpoint, I'd like to discuss your eschatology. 

I suspect it's entirely possible true believers might witness the destruction of Damascus, Syria, the destruction of Elam, the Ezekiel 38: 39: invasion, one of them, some of them, or all of them before our catching away. With my pretribulational view, born again believers are not appointed to the wrath of God, contrary to some opinions, is the entire seven weeks of Jacobs trouble, the seven year tribulation. So, sometime prior to the seven year tribulation having the P.T. viewpoint, born again believers (the church) is out of here.

We know for a fact after the Antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel, in 1260 days (3 1/2 years in the Jewish calendar), the A.C. will commit the abomination of desolation in the temple, setting himself up as god. By this point we know that all Jews and Israelite's will be fleeing the country for their lives. There will be no IDF around to protect them.

It appears to me the Ezekiel 38: invasion is separate and distinct and prior to the start of the great tribulation and not part of it. Now, at the conclusion of the Ezekiel 38: 39: invasion, Israel will be burning Gog / Magog's weapons of war for seven years.  This places the invasion of Gog / Magog a minimum of 3 1/2 years prior to the start of the great tribulation, no? I personally suspect the timing of the Rapture might possibly occur during the interval between the destruction of Gog / Magog and the signing of the covenant? That's only my speculative thoughts, what's yours???

One other thing that seems to be changing from my long time eschatological studies and view. I've always thought the evil thought and hook in they jaw of Gog / Magog that draws the coalition to invade Israel was either oil, or all the benefit from the chemicals of the Dead Sea. Recently Israel has discovered a mammoth field of natural gas and oil off their shores. We know Russia's major export and economic engine is petroleum, but has great difficulty getting it out of the ground and transporting it to market.

One thing that has recently come to light is, Russia is having major difficulties in food production and feeding its people. God has blessed Israel with producing and exporting some of the best produce and fruit the world has ever seen. It's produced in Israel and on land just on the East side of the Jordan River. The hook in Gog's jaw seems to symbolize the mouth, and what does the mouth do, eat? So in addition to the vast wealth being created by the vast natural gas reserves, could an additional reason for the invasion be to take control of Israels food and production? 

With Russia's presence, airports, military buildup and sea ports now established in Syria, they have effectively taken control of Syria and have the means, incentive and opportunity of robbing Israel by force. A good flash point or trigger for the invasion would be the IDF dropping a nuclear bomb on Damascus, Syria because of an immediate security threat to their nation by ISIS, terror organizations or a Muslim coalition? From the reports I've seen, the vast majority of the civilian population has fled Damascus and mostly the jihadists, Hezbollah, terrorists, Muslim brotherhood and those hostile toward Israel.

So... With current events and biblical prophecy, how do you all see this panning out? One thing is for certain, with each passing day the picture becomes more clear and sharper.

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Here is the time line:

The Lord will immortalize all of those who belong to Him from the beginning of creation

7 years of tribulation will come next .... the Lord will  bring it all

Satan and his fallen angles will participate on the earth

The beast [Abaddon/Apollyon] in the human little horn will rule with 10 other kings

The false prophet will support this beast with 2 Islamic human clerics

Armageddon will come at the end of the 70th week and last for 30 days

Then the Lord will appear and separate the mortals left on the earth over the next 45 days

All of those who believe in Him of Israel and of the Gentiles will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth as mortals

Those found in unbelief will not

Satan will be sent to the abyss and released to cause another rebellion at the end of the 1000 years

Satan will be sent to the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet were sent at the end of the battle of Armageddon 1000 years before

Then all of the spirits of lost humanity will be sentenced at the great white throne judgment and sent to the lake of fire

And eternity will begin with new heavens and a new earth which will last forever  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel 11:36

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2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

No one knows the day nor the hour of our catching away. To keep my comments as brief as possible I'm omitting supporting scripture.

The Lord could have come for his church at anytime from the day of His ascension, and there are no preconditions or prophecy that needs to be fulfilled. With that factual statement, and a pretribulational Rapture viewpoint, I'd like to discuss your eschatology. 

I suspect it's entirely possible true believers might witness the destruction of Damascus, Syria, the destruction of Elam, the Ezekiel 38: 39: invasion, one of them, some of them, or all of them before our catching away. With my pretribulational view, born again believers are not appointed to the wrath of God, contrary to some opinions, is the entire seven weeks of Jacobs trouble, the seven year tribulation. So, sometime prior to the seven year tribulation having the P.T. viewpoint, born again believers (the church) is out of here.

We know for a fact after the Antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel, in 1260 days (3 1/2 years in the Jewish calendar), the A.C. will commit the abomination of desolation in the temple, setting himself up as god. By this point we know that all Jews and Israelite's will be fleeing the country for their lives. There will be no IDF around to protect them.

It appears to me the Ezekiel 38: invasion is separate and distinct and prior to the start of the great tribulation and not part of it. Now, at the conclusion of the Ezekiel 38: 39: invasion, Israel will be burning Gog / Magog's weapons of war for seven years.  This places the invasion of Gog / Magog a minimum of 3 1/2 years prior to the start of the great tribulation, no? I personally suspect the timing of the Rapture might possibly occur during the interval between the destruction of Gog / Magog and the signing of the covenant? That's only my speculative thoughts, what's yours???

One other thing that seems to be changing from my long time eschatological studies and view. I've always thought the evil thought and hook in they jaw of Gog / Magog that draws the coalition to invade Israel was either oil, or all the benefit from the chemicals of the Dead Sea. Recently Israel has discovered a mammoth field of natural gas and oil off their shores. We know Russia's major export and economic engine is petroleum, but has great difficulty getting it out of the ground and transporting it to market.

One thing that has recently come to light is, Russia is having major difficulties in food production and feeding its people. God has blessed Israel with producing and exporting some of the best produce and fruit the world has ever seen. It's produced in Israel and on land just on the East side of the Jordan River. The hook in Gog's jaw seems to symbolize the mouth, and what does the mouth do, eat? So in addition to the vast wealth being created by the vast natural gas reserves, could an additional reason for the invasion be to take control of Israels food and production? 

With Russia's presence, airports, military buildup and sea ports now established in Syria, they have effectively taken control of Syria and have the means, incentive and opportunity of robbing Israel by force. A good flash point or trigger for the invasion would be the IDF dropping a nuclear bomb on Damascus, Syria because of an immediate security threat to their nation by ISIS, terror organizations or a Muslim coalition? From the reports I've seen, the vast majority of the civilian population has fled Damascus and mostly the jihadists, Hezbollah, terrorists, Muslim brotherhood and those hostile toward Israel.

So... With current events and biblical prophecy, how do you all see this panning out? One thing is for certain, with each passing day the picture becomes more clear and sharper.

I believe I am with you on your belief of the pretribulation timing. In my heart nothing else makes sense.

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4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

The Lord could have come for his church at anytime from the day of His ascension, and there are no preconditions or prophecy that needs to be fulfilled. With that factual statement, and a pretribulational Rapture viewpoint, I'd like to discuss your eschatology.

I have a question about the above "factual statement."  What about the great commission that Jesus reiterated in Matthew 24?

  • And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."  Matthew 28:18-19
  • This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

Didn't that have to be fulfilled?  If Jesus came for His church the day after His ascension, who would then carry out that directive?  How would the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled?

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14 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I have a question about the above "factual statement."  What about the great commission that Jesus reiterated in Matthew 24?

  • And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."  Matthew 28:18-19
  • This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

Didn't that have to be fulfilled?  If Jesus came for His church the day after His ascension, who would then carry out that directive?  How would the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled?

What about the great commission? It has nothing to do with the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

Question: "What is the Great Commission?"

Answer:
Matthew 28:19-20 contains what has come to be called the Great Commission: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Jesus gave this command to the apostles shortly before He ascended into heaven, and it essentially outlines what Jesus expected the apostles, and those who followed them, to do in His absence.

It is interesting that in the original Greek, the only specific command in Matthew 28:19-20 is “make disciples.” The Great Commission instructs us to make disciples while we are going throughout the world and while we are going about our daily activities. How are we to make disciples? By baptizing them and teaching them all that Jesus commanded. “Make disciples” is the command of the Great Commission. “As you are going,” “baptizing,” and “teaching” are the means by which we fulfill the command to “make disciples.”

Many understand Acts 1:8 as part of the Great Commission as well, “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” The Great Commission is enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit. We are to be Christ's witnesses, fulfilling the Great Commission in our cities (Jerusalem), in our states and countries (Judea and Samaria), and anywhere else God sends us (to the ends of the earth).

https://www.gotquestions.org/great-commission.html

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The time of the Gentiles also has nothing to do with the pretribulation rapture of the Church

Question: "What are the times of the Gentiles?"

Answer:
In Luke 21:24, Jesus speaks of future events, including the destruction of Jerusalem and His return. He says that “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (ESV). A similar phrase is found in Romans 11:25, which says, “A partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (ESV). Does the Bible tell us what the phrase “times of the Gentiles” means?

The Old Testament does not contain this exact phrase, but there are references that seem to match up. Ezekiel 30:3 points to “a time of doom for the nations” in connection with the Day of the Lord. Daniel’s series of visions deals with Gentile world powers and their role in God’s plan for the earth. Nebuchadnezzar’s image of gold, silver, bronze, iron, and clay (Daniel 2:31–45) represents successive Gentile kingdoms that will dominate until Christ returns and establishes His reign. Daniel’s vision of the four beasts (Daniel 7:1–27) likewise speaks of four kings, or nations, which will dominate for a time until Christ comes to rule forever. The vision of the ram and the goat (Daniel 8:1–26) gives more detail about these Gentile rulers and the time involved in their dominion. In each of these passages, the Gentiles have dominion over the world, including the Jewish people, for a time, but God will ultimately subdue them all and establish His own kingdom once and for all. Each prophecy culminates with a reference to Christ's kingdom, so the “times” of these Gentile rulers would be all the years between the Babylonian Empire of Nebuchadnezzar and the glorious return of Christ to establish His kingdom. We are now living in “the times of the Gentiles,” that is, in the era of Gentile domination.

When we examine the book of Revelation, we find similar references to the time of Gentile dominion ending with the return of Christ. In Revelation 11:2, John indicates that Jerusalem will be under Gentile rule, even though the temple has been restored. The armies of the Beast are destroyed by the Lord in Revelation 19:17–19, just before the millennial reign of Christ is initiated.

Looking again at Luke 21:24, we see that Jesus mentions a time in which Jerusalem is under the dominion of Gentile authority. Nebuchadnezzar's conquest of Jerusalem in 588 BC began that period, and it has continued through the present time. Romans 11:25 gives us a hint as to God’s purpose in the times of the Gentiles: the spread of the gospel throughout the whole world. The organization and inventions of the pagan world powers have actually aided the evangelism of the world. For example, in the first century, it was the widespread use of the Greek language and the network of Roman roads that allowed many people in far-off lands to hear the gospel.

One theme of Romans 11 is that, when the Jewish people rejected Christ, they were temporarily cut off from the blessings of a relationship with God. As a result, the gospel was given to the Gentiles, and they gladly received it. This partial hardening of heart for Israel doesn’t preclude individual Jews from being saved, but it prevents the nation from accepting Christ as Messiah until His plans are finished. When the time is right, God will restore the entire nation, and they will come to faith in Him once again, ending “the times of the Gentiles” (Isaiah 17:7; 62:11–12; Romans 11:26).

https://www.gotquestions.org/times-of-the-Gentiles.html

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37 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I have a question about the above "factual statement."  What about the great commission that Jesus reiterated in Matthew 24?

  • And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."  Matthew 28:18-19
  • This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.  Matthew 24:14

Didn't that have to be fulfilled?  If Jesus came for His church the day after His ascension, who would then carry out that directive?  How would the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled?

I guess the Apostle Paul must have been mistaken, looking for His return in his own lifetime?

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5 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I guess the Apostle Paul must have been mistaken, looking for His return in his own lifetime?

Scripture?

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16 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Scripture?

Paul himself. Titus 2: 12-13 sure sounds like he has included himself as looking for the Lord's return.

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9 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Paul himself. Titus 2: 12-13 sure sounds like he has included himself as looking for the Lord's return.

Yes, he is expressing every Christian's hope beyond this world, the blessed assurance of eternal life and immortality at His return.  There's nothing to indicate that he considers it imminent.  It's just what he was looking forward to, as we should as well.  It's that blessed hope that should motivate us to live godly in a world of wickedness, which is the context of that passage.

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