Some encouraging Scriptures about the rapture

[Diaste]

49 minutes ago, Mary8 said:

This Scripture does not refer to that coming

Can you prove that?

I know you said it, but can you show evidence of the non-reference?

 

[Montana Marv]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

1 Thess 4 refers to the same coming of the Lord as the Lord Himself spoke of in Matt 24.

At the end, after GT, the Rev 19 coming. One coming of the Lord in great detail when I Thess 4, 2 Thess 2, Matt 24, Jude and Rev 19 are taken as declarative witnesses of a singular event.

There is no 2nd coming before a 2nd coming. There is no coming in the clouds, and then a coming in the air, and then another 2nd coming to the ground.

Pretrib just makes it all up as they go along. I guess it's appropriate seeing as the doctrine starts from a false premise. (Wrath equals tribulation equals GT, etc, ad nauseam) 

Prepare for battle, the beast comes for the Church.

Post- trib must worship demons and idol before they come to know the Lord.  Read Rev 9:20 The rest of mankind which were not killed by the plagues continued to worship demons and idols.  And then  Rev 3:10 Those who dwell on the earth will go through these tests.  Just like a classroom full of students.  You are all going to partake in a pop quiz.  The only ones not participating are those who are not there.

The Harpozo and the 2nd Coming are two totally different events separated by time.   The Harpozo, We meet the Lord in the Air.  We receive our rewards in Heaven.  Jesus makes a place for us according to John 16.  The Wedding Supper of the Lamb will occur.  The wise virgins make it into this event as guests.  The foolish virgins wait the rest of the 70th Week out and later will be sent to the Lake of Fire at the end of the Mill.  The Post tribbers will wail when they see Jesus Christ return at the 2nd Coming.  Prepare for our Blessed Hope. A time which only God the Father knows, the time of the Bridegroom coming for His Bride.  We all know the 2nd Coming happens after the 70 Week, almost down to the minute.

It really is sickening how Post Tribbers reject Rev 3:10 and Rev 9:20.  And also John 14.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

44 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Post- trib must worship demons and idol before they come to know the Lord.  Read Rev 9:20

It really is sickening how Post Tribbers reject Rev 3:10 and Rev 9:20.  And also John 14.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Nothing is ignored. It's just taken as it's written. I don't see anything in the passages cited for a timing of a pretrib rapture. I fully agree with Rev 9:20 though I don't see the point of John 14 in relation to timing. The fact of the gathering is well established. Prove the timing akin to this:

 

" 21 For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.

23 At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25 See, I have told you in advance.

26 So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.c 31 And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. " 

Or: 

For at that time there will be great tribulation, Immediately after the tribulation of those days:...the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, And He will send out His angels and they will gather His elect from the four winds,

I do not care if the elect here is any particular group or nation. What I care about is the very specific order of events and timing. Is there anywhere in scripture where an order of events and timing appear together as in the case above as proof of a pretrib rapture?

Clearly we have a gathering conducted by angels of the elect of God after the A of D and after Great Tribulation.  Does scripture spell out the pretrib rapture like this? You don't get to misuse 2 Thess 2:1-7. That instance is obviously the coming of the Lord and the gathering occurring after the A of D, just like in Matt 24; it is not a pretrib rapture passage and it does not contain the full gamut of evidence of timing and order like Matt 24.

To be as clear as Matt 24 pretrib should have a direct statement that supports the claim of imminence, e.g., "Before the tribulation period the Church will be gathered from the earth before the prophecies of the latter days begin to come to pass."  I mean, one would think that would appear somewhere as it will be a nearly incomprehensible event throwing the world into chaos. There is so much chaotic imagery contained in the NT about the last week why would this be left out? We are talking about a couple billion people just disappearing with no warning and all we see from the pretrib pundits is rhetoric, no hard textual evidence.

There should also be a direct statement similar to the direct statements in Matt 24 that equates God's wrath with the 70th week, e.g., "My wrath will be the 70th seven.", or some such. (Though Rev 6:12-17 would refute that.) Or any verse or passage that equates the persecution of His people to God's own wrath?

Let me show you what pretrib ignores.

"And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus."

Now, by this point all the evangelists are gone. The Church has been taken out prior to this by 3.5 years. Not a single christian is left. So where did these commandment keeps and Jesus testimony holders come from? Are you saying that with all the believers gone that a bunch of believers just happened? So an untold number, "After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."  just happened to get born again on their own and become " the ones who have come out of the great tribulation;" ? In less that 7 years a number too large to count becomes born again with no one to lead them?  Maybe you're thinking the 144,000 is there to evangelize? Would you have proof they are on earth before the A of D? At the beginning of the last week? I looks to me like they might be on earth during the wrath of God and not before. Oh wait, The wrath of God is the entire last week, right?

And if these who have come from great tribulation are the ones who, "

For this reason, ‘They are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 Never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst; nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd. 

He will lead them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes"

Then why isn't something similar said about pretrib believers? This is a big deal here. These people are highly exalted. Shouldn't there be some mention of 2 billion pretrib rapturists somewhere? In order to be taken off the earth alive the pretribbers must be something special above all others. Where is the mention of their ultimate destiny?

 

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Nothing is ignored. It's just taken as it's written. I don't see anything in the passages cited for a timing of a pretrib rapture. I fully agree with Rev 9:20 though I don't see the point of John 14 in relation to timing. The fact of the gathering is well established. Prove the timing akin to this:

That is the point.  We do not know when the 70th Week will begin.  10 minutes from now or 3 years from now.  Only God the Father knows the time for the Rapture.  Once the 70th Week begins, all will be known within a few days or weeks to the 2nd Coming.  All will be able to figure this date out.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

There should also be a direct statement similar to the direct statements in Matt 24 that equates God's wrath with the 70th week, e.g., "My wrath will be the 70th seven.", or some such. (Though Rev 6:12-17 would refute that.) Or any verse or passage that equates the persecution of His people to God's own wrath?

The great distress of Matt 24 is after the A/D is revealed (nothing about God's Wrath here).  This is the onslaught of Satan against the Elect of Israel (Rev 12:13-17).  Gods Wrath does not occur until after the 4th Trumpet; Woe, Woe, Woe to the inhabitants of the earth . (Rev 8:13)

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Diaste]

On 7/11/2019 at 6:56 PM, Abdicate said:

The first 3.5 years is the Wrath of the Lamb. The last 3.5 years is the Wrath of God the Father from the Hebrew Scriptures. 7 years. Count up the billions that will die while the Two Witnesses preach 1260 days then when they die the AC has - wait for it - 1260 days = 42 months = 3.5 years before Jesus returns. That's wrath.

Seems a bit forced, doesn't it? 

Scripture says: (I'm going to edit for brevity)

The Fifth Seal: The Martyrs

9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 

The Sixth Seal: Terror

 16 And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Any who are slain for the Word and their Testimony must be put to death by the enemy of God. God isn't killing them. It makes little sense to think the Lamb or God is putting their own martyrs to the sword. Based on that alone the wrath of the Lamb isn't happening from the beginning of the final week.

So then if the seals open in order the martyrs are killed before the Return of Jesus. Since both the wrath of the one who sits on the throne and the wrath of Lamb are only mentioned beginning at the 6th seal, after the martyrs are killed, then wrath cannot begin before this. "For the great day of Their wrath has come". THEIR wrath has come. Only here and not before.

One can define wrath any way one wishes I suppose, the curse of free will and independent moral agency, but the only known and wholly indisputable facts extant confirm wrath commences after the martyrs are killed, which would be after the A of D, which is at the midpoint.

Ever consider the calamitous circumstances of the second, third and fourth seals may be a result of the operations of the two witnesses?

"These witnesses have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall during the days of their prophecy, and power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish."

The plagues of the trumps

7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.

8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, A third of the sea turned to blood,

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,

It's my position these trumps coincide with the first 4 seals, none of which is the wrath of God since that is not mentioned.

It's a lot like the Plagues of Egypt. Not wrath but still painful. I think God calls it 'pleading'. A way to get people to turn to Him before the fierceness of His anger explodes in the finality of His wrath.

In any case the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God do not begin until after the martyrs are killed, past the A of D, well into the final months or last year of the last week.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by Diaste

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 Once the 70th Week begins, all will be known within a few days or weeks to the 2nd Coming.  All will be able to figure this date out.

 

Which would not violate the one limiting factor of 'day and hour'. We certainly can know within weeks or days.

" And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." - Luke 21

Jesus would only say this if it was near in time and space, and the Greek confirms the imminence of His appearing when the described events occur. So months or weeks or days doesn't matter. The only thing we cannot know is the 'day and hour'. We could know the day but not the hour, or the hour but not the day. Not that we will know either but that ain't the limiter, both 'day and hour' together is.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

 This is the onslaught of Satan against the Elect of Israel (Rev 12:13-17). 

 

Remember, we as believers have been grafted into the natural olive tree that is Israel, the Seed of Abraham. Don't you mean Satan's onslaught against the believers in Christ?

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Remember, we as believers have been grafted into the natural olive tree that is Israel, the Seed of Abraham. Don't you mean Satan's onslaught against the believers in Christ?

No, we the Church, have been grafted into the Vine which is Jesus Christ.  The Olive tree is not Israel, some of its branches are Israel.  If the root is holy, so are the branches.  The branches were broken off because of unbelief.  The Root (Godhead) is Holy.  All come from the Godhead.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Remember, we as believers have been grafted into the natural olive tree that is Israel, the Seed of Abraham. Don't you mean Satan's onslaught against the believers in Christ?

No, Satan's onslaught is against the Woman, Israel.  Some of the branches of the Olive tree are Israel,  Its root is of God.

In Christ

Montana Marv