No one ever went to heaven during OT times.

[missmuffet]

56 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Then how do you explain Luke 16: 22 - 26?

I really don't understand your question. Abraham was able to speak to the rich man in torment and the rich man could see those in paradise.  Could those in paradise see those in torment? From this parable it is possible that those in Hades today can see those in heaven. Just another torment added to them.

[Dennis1209]

9 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I really don't understand your question. Abraham was able to speak to the rich man in torment and the rich man could see those in paradise.  Could those in paradise see those in torment? From this parable it is possible that those in Hades today can see those in heaven. Just another torment added to them.

Your quote: They do not communicate. Just like those unbelievers now in Hades can't communicate with those in heaven.

My response: What about Luke 16: 22-26

BTW: It's not a parable in my opinion. Parable's always show themselves by words like; as if, as, liken unto, such as, etc. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Dennis1209

[missmuffet]

5 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Your quote: They do not communicate. Just like those unbelievers now in Hades can't communicate with those in heaven.

My response: What about Luke 16: 22-26

BTW: It's not a parable in my opinion. Parable's always show themselves by words like; as if, as, liken unto, such as, etc. 

Well in the Parable it was Abraham who was communicating. God could have given him the ability to do that. Parables are God showing His truth.

[Dennis1209]

10 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

Well in the Parable it was Abraham who was communicating. God could have given him the ability to do that. Parables are God showing His truth.

Like I tried to imply earlier, a 'parable' is a short moral story to convey a religious message. This was no parable but an event that actually took place. In the Bible a parable seems to always be preceded with identifiers, such as listed above. It's possible this could have been a one time event. However, Abraham didn't initiate the contact, the rich man did. There's nothing that says or indicated this was a one time event. It could be that part of the everlasting torment is the ability of those in Hell to see what they missed by rejecting God? I don't know but my interpretations suggest it to me.

[HAZARD]

John, in the spirit, was given permission to see the throne of God in heaven.

Rev. 4:1-2, After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    2, And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

[missmuffet]

52 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

Like I tried to imply earlier, a 'parable' is a short moral story to convey a religious message. This was no parable but an event that actually took place. In the Bible a parable seems to always be preceded with identifiers, such as listed above. It's possible this could have been a one time event. However, Abraham didn't initiate the contact, the rich man did. There's nothing that says or indicated this was a one time event. It could be that part of the everlasting torment is the ability of those in Hell to see what they missed by rejecting God? I don't know but my interpretations suggest it to me.

I think you are right. It is a story. Yes, just part of the everlasting torment of those unbelievers in Hades. They will be separated from God and it will be extremely dark. They will be welcomed to their eternity by unending regret with their memories and feeling fully intact. Death will be far worse than they ever imagined.

[Quasar93]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

This is a long and detailed study in and of itself! Much has been written.

 

Jesus went in Spirit, to Sheol during the time His body was in the grave, and preached to all who were there, going back as far as the time of Noah.  Those who believed/received Him , were taken to heaven by Jesus when He ascended in Acts 1:9, recorded in Eph.4:7-10, confirming Ps;68:18.

 

Quasar93

[Retrobyter]

On 1/7/2018 at 11:37 PM, Quasar93 said:

Except Enoch and Elijah. 

1. Jesus made the following remark before he was crucified in: Jn.3:13 NIV:  "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."  With the two exceptions of Enoch and Elijah who weere both translated to heaven, according to Gen.5:21-24 and 2 Kgs.2:11.

2. As He said in: Jn.6:46 NIV:  "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only He has seen the Father."

3. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Lk.16:22-26 NIV, is a perfect profile of OT Sheol that reveals both the righteous and the wicked going there in spirit after their physical death.  "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.  The rich man also died and was buried.  In Hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus [the beggar] by his side.  So he called to him, 'father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.'"  

"But Abrahan replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is conforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"   

4. The reason for 3. above is because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins as recorded in Heb.10:4 NIV.

5. Number 4. above reinforced by Paul in Rom.3:25-26 NIV.  "God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.  He did this to denonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance, He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.  He did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

6. Jesus introduced the New Covenant of Grace as recorded in Lk.22:20 NIV, opening the door to salvation for all, both Jews and Gentiles.  "...This cup is the New Covenant in my blood, whichn is poured out for you."

7. After Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, as recorded in Lk.23:46 NIV, the disposition of where everyone goes who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior since Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3 NIV, is found in 2 Cor.5:6-8 NIV, "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and in Phil.1:21-23 NIV, confirming Ecc.12:7 NIV.

8. So what happened to the OT righteous after Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross? Jesus went in Spirit to the prison [Sheol] and preached the Gospel to the all the OT righteous as well as the wicked during Noah's time, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. As recorded in Isa.55:11 the word from the mouth of the Lord does not come back empty, but will accomplish His desire and achieve His purpose.  Which I believe was the case here, giving an opportunity for all the OT righteous to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.


9. Jesus said in Jn.3:13: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

10. So when Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9, He took all the OT righteous to heaven with Him, who were in Sheol and received Him, when He was there, in 1 Pet.3:18-20, according to Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy in Ps.68:18.

11. As documented in Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:14-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8, when Jesus returns to rapture His Church, all the saints who previously died in Him, both OT and NT, return with Him from heaven when He returns to the earth in His second coming, at that time, according to Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14.  

12. IMO: All the saints will be with Jesus during His Millennial reign here on the earth.


Quasar93

Shabbat shalom, Quasar93.

Let's go back and nip this nonsense in the bud: You said,

3. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Lk.16:22-26 NIV, is a perfect profile of OT Sheol that reveals both the righteous and the wicked going there in spirit after their physical death.  "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.  The rich man also died and was buried.  In Hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus [the beggar] by his side.  So he called to him, 'father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.'"  

"But Abrahan replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is conforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"   

However, this is NOT talking about some two-chambered hole in the center of the earth! This is talking about IN THE RESURRECTION! The Greek word "hadees," spelled "alpha-delta-eta-s(t)igma" with the rough breathing mark (transliterated as an"h") over the alpha, pronounced "HAH-dace," not "HAY-deez," means the "unseen." It's not a place; it's a CONDITION! It's talking about the FUTURE! This has to be talking about after the Resurrection because how could the rich man have a tongue needing to be cooled without a BODY having a tongue?! How could Elezar ("Lazarus") dip a finger in water without a BODY having fingers?! How could the rich man be "in torment" without a BODY having nerves?! How could Avraham send Elezar if Elezar had no BODY with legs and feet?! And, how could a chasm separate them if they were not PHYSICAL BODIES limited by time and space?!

I've heard it all my life: "In hell, one has all of his or her senses." But, we should be using "Ockham's Razor" here:

Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor; Latin: lex parsimoniae "law of parsimony") is a problem-solving principle attributed to William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), who was an English Franciscan friar, scholastic philosopher, and theologian. His principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

Wouldn't it make more sense that one has returned to life in his or her body, experiencing the senses of that body, rather than to say that a "soul" has senses without a body in some place called "hell" or "paradise?!"

Did you know that "paradise," transliterated from the Greek "paradeisos," which in turn was transliterated from the Hebrew "pardeec," means a "PARK," specifically a "PARK OF TREES?!" So, is there (or was there) a "park of trees" or an "orchard" IN THE PIT AT THE CENTER OF THE EARTH?!

[ScottA]

On 1/7/2018 at 8:37 PM, Quasar93 said:

Except Enoch and Elijah. 

1. Jesus made the following remark before he was crucified in: Jn.3:13 NIV:  "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."  With the two exceptions of Enoch and Elijah who weere both translated to heaven, according to Gen.5:21-24 and 2 Kgs.2:11.

2. As He said in: Jn.6:46 NIV:  "No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only He has seen the Father."

3. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Lk.16:22-26 NIV, is a perfect profile of OT Sheol that reveals both the righteous and the wicked going there in spirit after their physical death.  "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.  The rich man also died and was buried.  In Hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus [the beggar] by his side.  So he called to him, 'father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.'"  

"But Abrahan replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is conforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"   

4. The reason for 3. above is because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins as recorded in Heb.10:4 NIV.

5. Number 4. above reinforced by Paul in Rom.3:25-26 NIV.  "God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.  He did this to denonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance, He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.  He did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

6. Jesus introduced the New Covenant of Grace as recorded in Lk.22:20 NIV, opening the door to salvation for all, both Jews and Gentiles.  "...This cup is the New Covenant in my blood, whichn is poured out for you."

7. After Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, as recorded in Lk.23:46 NIV, the disposition of where everyone goes who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior since Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3 NIV, is found in 2 Cor.5:6-8 NIV, "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and in Phil.1:21-23 NIV, confirming Ecc.12:7 NIV.

8. So what happened to the OT righteous after Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross? Jesus went in Spirit to the prison [Sheol] and preached the Gospel to the all the OT righteous as well as the wicked during Noah's time, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. As recorded in Isa.55:11 the word from the mouth of the Lord does not come back empty, but will accomplish His desire and achieve His purpose.  Which I believe was the case here, giving an opportunity for all the OT righteous to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.


9. Jesus said in Jn.3:13: "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man."

10. So when Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9, He took all the OT righteous to heaven with Him, who were in Sheol and received Him, when He was there, in 1 Pet.3:18-20, according to Eph.4:7-10, fulfilling the prophecy in Ps.68:18.

11. As documented in Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:14-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8, when Jesus returns to rapture His Church, all the saints who previously died in Him, both OT and NT, return with Him from heaven when He returns to the earth in His second coming, at that time, according to Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14.  

12. IMO: All the saints will be with Jesus during His Millennial reign here on the earth.


Quasar93

What Jesus said of Himself, that "no one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the son of man" is true both back in time and also forward, for He is the "only begotten" and all are "in Him" and were and are raised up in His "hour." This is what is revealed of what is written of all that came to pass "before the foundation of the world." His eternity, told by God in the media of time. History, is His story.

[Your closest friendnt]

On 1/8/2018 at 11:42 PM, Quasar93 said:

 

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Lk.16:22-26 NIV, is a perfect profile of OT Sheol/Hades/Hell that reveals both the righteous and the wicked going there in spirit after their physical death.  "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side.  The rich man also died and was buried.  In Hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus [the beggar] by his side.  So he called to him, 'father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.'"  

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.  And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'"   

4. The reason for 3. above is because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sinsduring OT times, as recorded in Heb.10:4 NIV.

5. Number 4. above reinforced by Paul in Rom.3:25-26 NIV.  "God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.  He did this to demonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance, He had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.  He did it to demonstrate His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

6. Jesus introduced the New Covenant of Grace as recorded in Lk.22:20 NIV, opening the door to salvation for all, both Jews and Gentiles.  "...This cup is the New Covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."

7. After Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross, as recorded in Lk.23:46 NIV, the disposition of where everyone goes who receive Jesus as Lord and Savior since Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3 NIV, is found in 2 Cor.5:6-8 NIV, "absent from the body, present with the Lord," and in Phil.1:21-23 NIV, confirming Ecc.12:7 NIV.

8. So what happened to the OT righteous after Jesus shed His blood and died on the cross? Jesus went in Spirit to the prison [Sheol/Hades/Hell] and preached the Gospel to all the OT righteous as well as the wicked, clear back to Noah's time, according to 1 Pet.3:18-20. As recorded in Isa.55:11 the word from the mouth of the Lord does not come back empty, but will accomplish His desire and achieve His purpose.  Which I believe was the case here, giving an opportunity for all the OT righteous to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

When Jesus ascended into heaven, He took all the OT saints who received Him when He preached to them in Sheol/Hades/Hell, as recorded in Eph.4:7-10, confirming Ps.68:18.  When Jesus returns in His second coming from His marriage to His Bride, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-8, the OT saints, the Church and His angels will all follow Him, in His armies from heaven, in verse 14.

 

 

Quasar93

Jesus died for all, and to give life to all, you forgot to say if Jesus preach the Gospel to all from the beginning to righteous before Abraham and to the unrighteous . or did say that, sorry. 

Jesus said that he has to descent to the very low before he ascents to the very hight. 

He must have gone and show himself to everyone down there even to the fallen angells kept in prison, so they may see him, for every eye must see him, that he is the one. 

Edited February 3, 2018 by Your closest friendnt