Will there be a per-trib rapture

[Keras]

4 hours ago, Sister said:

Why are these scriptures being ignored?

and why is the word of God not settling this dispute?

The Word of God tells us why:

Isaiah 29:9-12 says that those who confuse themselves, will remain confused and the Prophetic Word is a sealed Book to all who have chosen to believe false teachings and doctrines.  1 Corinthians 3:18-20

It is God's purpose to allow people their free will to choose Him firstly, then to accept Jesus' atoning sacrifice, then to read what His Word tells us how to live righteously, THEN, what He plans for our future.    So actually, not knowing what will happen isn't a salvation issue and we know that not many will understand the prophesies. Daniel 12:4-10 

But those who have believed unscriptural theories and fables; as Paul said many would, 2 Timothy 4:3-4; deceived, as Jesus said we could be; Matthew 24:4, will be taken by surprise when the Lord does take action to correct the world situation, which is now, once again; as in the days of Noah. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Keras

[OneLight]

11 hours ago, Keras said:

1 Thess 4:15-17 is about the glorious Return of Jesus, when He come down from heaven and gathers His own. Matthew 24:30-31  This gathering will be like what happened to Philip, Acts 8:39; a transportation from our earthly place at that time; to Jerusalem.  We never go to heaven; Jesus said that was impossible. John 3:13

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgement, at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15   Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more, the Book of Life is opened then and all whose names are Written in it will receive immortality. Not before that!

Hebrews 12:5-11, can be applied to our present trials, but for most of us in the Western nations, these 'trials' don't amount to any great hardship. The real trial and testing will come with the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. 1 Peter 4:12  Which is the next prophesied event we can expect. Revelation 6:12-17

I would disagree that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is speaking about the Great White Throne Judgment.  Both point to the same timing, when Christ returns.  Notice the similarities?

1 Thess 4:15-17

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[Keras]

7 hours ago, OneLight said:

I would disagree that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is speaking about the Great White Throne Judgment.  Both point to the same timing, when Christ returns.  Notice the similarities?

Disagreement with the Prophetic Word is a serious matter. It doesn't affect your salvation, but may cause problems for you soon. 

Pauls prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56, refers to the 'last trumpet', and to the time that Death will be no more. He also refers to the Kingdom of God, whereas the Millennium will be the Kingdom of Jesus.   Revelation 21:1-7 plainly states that only after the Mill. will Death be done away with. Paul does not state when his prophecy will happen.   The Last Trumpet will sound for all the dead, everyone who has ever lived; to rise for the GWT Judgement. Rev 20:11-15    But those who are alive at that time; this probably includes those martyrs that Jesus raised at His Return, Rev 20:4, will then receive Eternal life, without tasting death. PROVIDED their names are Written into the Book of Life. 

[OneLight]

23 minutes ago, Keras said:

Disagreement with the Prophetic Word is a serious matter. It doesn't affect your salvation, but may cause problems for you soon. 

Pauls prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56, refers to the 'last trumpet', and to the time that Death will be no more. He also refers to the Kingdom of God, whereas the Millennium will be the Kingdom of Jesus.   Revelation 21:1-7 plainly states that only after the Mill. will Death be done away with. Paul does not state when his prophecy will happen.   The Last Trumpet will sound for all the dead, everyone who has ever lived; to rise for the GWT Judgement. Rev 20:11-15    But those who are alive at that time; this probably includes those martyrs that Jesus raised at His Return, Rev 20:4, will then receive Eternal life, without tasting death. PROVIDED their names are Written into the Book of Life. 

I see, it will cause problems for me.  Tell me, what makes you so sure it is me who is seeing this incorrectly?  I would very much appreciate it if you can show me where in these verses it claims that "death will be no more", as you claim.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

“O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

And just in case you got it mixed up, here is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Nope, not there either.  If it did, you would have a point, but it doesn't, so I suggest you not add to scripture and take scripture by what it actually says.

Oh, there is no mention of any last trumpet in Revelation 20:11-15 ... another addition by you?  You really need to stop adding to scripture, as adding to Revelation, well read it for yourself: "If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;" Revelation 22:18b

Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Seems to me that in just one reply, not only did you falsely accuse me of being incorrect, but have yourself shown that you need to add to what scripture is actually saying in order to support your theology.  It seems to me that as many who have tried to correct you in your errors since you have been here, you must have an unteachable spirit as you still refuse the truth, but insist your understand trumps scripture itself.

Now, if by chance you are claiming to be a prophet, realize that prophecy will never go against scripture.

[Keras]

One light, I do not claim to be a prophet. What I do is to point out the truths of the Prophetic Word.

Your claim that 1 Cor 15 doesn't say 'Death will be no more', is refuted by the verse that you post; 'Death is swallowed up in Victory'.  That happens after the Millennium, as Revelation 21:1-7 .....they will receive water from the Spring of Life. This is the Victors heritage, I will be their God and they will be My Children. It doesn't say anything about immortality in 2 Thess 4.  Your theory makes that up. 

Re the Last trumpet; We gain understanding by reading all the prophesies, as Isaiah says; here a little and there a little.  So Paul informs us that there will be a Trumpet blast when all the dead are brought before the Great White Throne in Judgement.  The Last Trumpet!

Edited February 10, 2018 by Keras

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Keras said:

One light, I do not claim to be a prophet. What I do is to point out the truths of the Prophetic Word.

Your claim that 1 Cor 15 doesn't say 'Death will be no more', is refuted by the verse that you post; 'Death is swallowed up in Victory'.  That happens after the Millennium, as Revelation 21:1-7 .....they will receive water from the Spring of Life. This is the Victors heritage, I will be their God and they will be My Children. It doesn't say anything about immortality in 2 Thess 4.  Your theory makes that up. 

Re the Last trumpet; We gain understanding by reading all the prophesies, as Isaiah says; here a little and there a little.  So Paul informs us that there will be a Trumpet blast when all the dead are brought before the Great White Throne in Judgement.  The Last Trumpet!

There is a difference between the two.  I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you knew this. When there will be no more death is when the New Heaven, New Earth and the New Jerusalem is here, not before as you claim.  Read Revelation 21:1-4.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.  Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

1 Corinthians 15 speaks of the victory over death for those who chose life.  Nothing else.  There is no 2 Thessalonians 4.  It is 1 Thessalonians 4.  What is says is "And thus we shall always be with the Lord."  Always be with the Lord.  Sounds final to me.  Not sure where you came up with the word immortality as I didn't use that word.

You fail to show that Paul was speaking of the Great White Throne Judgment because he was not.  All you give is your opinion, and from what I read, no thanks.  I'll stick with what scripture tells me, not what someone creates from their reading.

 

[Daniel 11:36]

Pre-tribulation speaks of that "before the coming tribulation"

This is going to happen and those believers of the past and present will be taken as stated .... then the tribulation will come immediately after against an unbelieving world of humans

If you are living at the time and are left to enter the tribulation period you will have to repent and can be saved [Revelation 3:15-19] 

[Keras]

Thank you, Royff, you point about Christians having to pass thru trials and tribulation, is correct. 1 Peter 4:12 

There will be 2 'tribulations'. The first will be the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. Revelation 6:12-17    Then we see the Lord's people; all the faithful Christians gathered in all of the holy Land. Revelation 7:1-14  They have passed thru the great ordeal [of the Sixth Seal event] and they stood firm in their faith, calling out to the Lord for His protection. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Then, a few years later, the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt, will conquer the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, and desecrate the Temple. This triggers the Great Tribulation of the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls, culminating in the battle of Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus. 

No one will be taken up to heaven, except the two Witnesses.  We see God's holy people on earth during the GT - Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7

[JoeCanada]

1 Thessalonians pictures the Rapture......................... 1Thes 4;14-17

 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

¹⁵ For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord............................................................

Mathew 24: 29-31 directly shows it occuring:

 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Now, notice in 1Thes 4:17....the last line......"And so shall we ever be with the Lord"

This is the critical fact.  If we see a vision or picture of Jesus in the Book of Revelation that occurs after the 70th Week of Daniel has begun and the saints are not with him, the rapture could not have happened yet because the saints will always be with the Lord from that moment forward.

When does the 70th week of Daniel begin? Nearly all bible scholars believe it begins at/after the Lamb breaks  the first seal on the seven sealed scroll. If scripture is able to show that the saints of God are not with the Lamb when he breaks this seal, then the rapture does not occur before what they call the "Tribulation Period", and the Pre-Tribulation is disproved.

Now look at Revelation 4......

John is called up to heaven.... "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter"

As John’s vision unfolds, we see God the Father sit upon his throne, Jesus (the Lamb) is found worthy to open it, the elders and living creatures sing a song of praise, a great multitude of angels praise the Lord, and Jesus opens the first seal. 

Who’s missing?  The saints!  They are to always be with the Lord after the rapture, yet they’re not there.  Can you imagine them not being present to praise Jesus for opening this scroll like the angels are?

Now John is still in heaven right thru Rev 5 and 6......... Then in Rev 7:9, we read this: "AFTER this, I beheld, and Lo (behold,see)

 

^{Rev 7: 9-14} After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

¹⁰ And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

¹¹ And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

¹² Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

When the rapture does occur (after the Great Tribulation) John goes into great detail about the saints and their praise.  The very next verse tells us “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple.” (Rev. 7:15 NASB)  There it is: they are always with the Lord.

Revelation supports the consistent testimony of scripture that there is no Pre-Tribulation Rapture.  The rapture happens after the sixth seal is broken on the scroll Jesus is opening...................(AFTER the seals were broken.......that was in Rev 6......(note.....No Trumpets and No Bowls)...they start in Rev 8:2)

 

 

[Sister]

7 hours ago, Royff said:

“Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” [Rev 2:10] KJV

I see all the different arguments for and against the pre-trib rapture and I’ve heard them all many times before, but will somebody please explain to me what Jesus meant he when he explain to the church that they must be faithful unto death in the great persecution that lies ahead. This I don’t understand, the Lord is telling His people that some of them will die in the great tribulation that they will face, some will go to prison, but I don’t hear in any of this that anyone true Christian will be spared persecution. Is Jesus speaking here of some other great tribulation than the one being discussed here, because He is here warning them that they will death. Maybe you have covered this, and I missed it. What tribulation is He referring to?  Is there more than one great tribulation?

Hi Royff

All Christians from all generations have had their tribulations in the Lord, some worse than others, so this is speaking to them back then to learn, but also especially to the last generation of when all things in Christ will be wrapped up and this is the "great tribulation" when Christians all throughout the earth will be persecuted at the same time for the same cause.  This cause will be the beast's system, which we were strongly warned about, ...the mark of the beast, and avoiding the final initiation into Satan's kingdom where it cannot be reversed. 

Satan's kingdom involves the material, and men love to worship and live for the material things which do not give life.  No one wants to go hungry, homeless, and destitute, giving up all the comforts that we've been used to for so long, ..we've all enjoyed this, and the devil knows this, so he will put us into a corner where we have to choose him in order to keep all these things, or lose the lot and possibly our lives for the sake of Christ, because Christ's angel warned us against this particular end time beast, that he will make it hard for us and force us into whom we will serve.

This is no ordinary tribulation but all will be faced with this decision and all have to make a choice.

I believe the ten days is speaking about the end times when we will be put in prison for refusing the Mark, and given time to change our minds, by strong persuasion.   The devil prefers us to take his mark, so that our names can be blotted out of the book of life.