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WHAT IS THE FALLING AWAY


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1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

For one to depart from the faith, they would first have to be joined with it.  Paul speaks about deceiving spirits and teachings of demons leading them away, and I don't think it is a mystery as to what the enemy wishes to lead people away from, the truth.  If their faith is in a lie, satan would just leave them where they are, right?

Say you're right and that 2 Thess 2:3/1 Tim 4:1 are about believers in Christ. Wouldn't you have to prove that OSAS is false?

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I think ultimately God is the restrainer, though the reference could be to any number of chosen instruments.  The archangels Michael or Gabriel would be possible candidates, as Daniel depicts Gabriel standing up for Israel as well as Michael, and Michael is also depicted as an instrument of dealing with satan in Revelation.  At the end of the day, everything that ever has happened, or will happen, is according to God's time and purpose.

But Michael's war is in heaven Rev 12:7, and 2 Thess 2:7-8 takes place on earth. Is it saying that Michael will physically appear on earth?

2 Thess 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way (ginomai).

ginomai: to come into being, to happen, to become
Original Word: γίνομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ginomai
Phonetic Spelling: (ghin'-om-ahee)
Short Definition: I come into being, am born
Definition: I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen.

HELPS Word-studies - 1096 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /ēn).

1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).

M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).

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For example, I could say in English, Joe tripped, or I could say, Joe stumbled.

But this is scripture we're talking about.

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On 3/26/2018 at 12:40 AM, Heb 13:8 said:

Say you're right and that 2 Thess 2:3/1 Tim 4:1 are about believers in Christ. Wouldn't you have to prove that OSAS is false?

 

The scripture speaks for itself doesn't it?  Unless you want to convince yourself that Paul is writing about some other faith, in something else, which completely goes against the basic principles of scripture.  Faith is not used to point towards anything but Christ.  As for OSAS, what you are suggesting is that a teaching from men overrides what these verses say.  Does that seem right to you?

 

On 3/26/2018 at 12:40 AM, Heb 13:8 said:

But Michael's war is in heaven Rev 12:7, and 2 Thess 2:7-8 takes place on earth. Is it saying that Michael will physically appear on earth?

 

Well, Michael is an angel, so he is a spiritual being, he doesn't have to physically appear to be present.  However, when you consider everything that is taking place, notice two important aspects of what is happening on earth.

 

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

 

The devil is thrown down to earth.

 

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth.

 

He cannot get to the remnant of Israel, they are being protected supernaturally for 3 1/2 years.  By whom?

 

Daniel 12  “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book."

 

It would seem, that once the enemy is no longer in heaven, that the archangels would serve a purpose elsewhere, as they have in the past.  Gabriel had been doing so according to what is written in Daniel earlier, with Michael contributing at times as well.  These are the passages I am referencing.

 

Daniel 10:13  The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

 

Daniel 10:21  But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince.

 

So, if Michael is the restrainer, or both of these archangels, then it would appear they are taken out of the way at this time to preserve the remnant of Israel for the 3 1/2 years.  According to Daniel, Michael is doing precisely that.

God bless

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4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The scripture speaks for itself doesn't it?  Unless you want to convince yourself that Paul is writing about some other faith, in something else, which completely goes against the basic principles of scripture.  Faith is not used to point towards anything but Christ.

I dunno, I mean scripture is taken out of context every day so... maybe Luke and Timothy are both referencing the same type of departing, those who had no root...

Luke 8:13 / 1 Tim 4:1
aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from
Original Word: ἀφίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I lead away, seduce, depart, abstain from
Definition: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.

Luke 8:11-15 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away (aphistémi). 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

1 Tim 4:3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Tim 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

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As for OSAS, what you are suggesting is that a teaching from men overrides what these verses say.  Does that seem right to you?

Denying OSAS...     that's a pretty heavy burden to carry. maybe that's why Jesus carried it for you.

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So, if Michael is the restrainer, or both of these archangels, then it would appear they are taken out of the way at this time to preserve the remnant of Israel for the 3 1/2 years.  According to Daniel, Michael is doing precisely that.

Who do you believe the child is being born before Israel flees, Rev 12:4-5.

teknon: a child (of either sex)
Original Word: τέκνον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: teknon
Phonetic Spelling: (tek'-non)
Short Definition: a child, descendent, inhabitant
Definition: a child, descendent, inhabitant.

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5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

I dunno, I mean scripture is taken out of context every day so.

 

What other context can this be taken in?

 

On 3/25/2018 at 6:59 PM, wingnut- said:

I Timothy 4  Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

 

What Paul is saying here, is that in later times, people will depart from the faith and follow false teachings and false teachers.  Things that sound good to the ear of the hearer, where he in other places refers to as "ear tickling doctrines".  The teachers he references here, forbid marriage and require abstaining from certain foods, which these folks who depart from the faith don't seem to recognize as false teachings.  People who understand the truth of that, know better, but not these folks apparently.

 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

maybe Luke and Timothy are both referencing the same type of departing, those who had no root...

 

I don't disagree with that at all, they must not have a root to depart in the first place, but you seem to be implying that they did not believe, so take a closer look at the passage.

 

Luke 8:11  “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away .

 

So you see that they believe, right?  To borrow a sports analogy, these folks are what you call fair weathered fans.  Everything is great when it is going like they want it to, but when times get difficult, they run after some other team.  The point of all this, is that receive the word with joy, and they believe, but they have no staying power.

 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Denying OSAS...     that's a pretty heavy burden to carry. maybe that's why Jesus carried it for you.

 

It's really no burden at all, perhaps the issue is in how it is defined?  From the above example, you can see plainly from Jesus' own mouth, that there are people who believe, and depart from the faith.  The explanation of it, appears to rest in that they have no root, which really means that while they accept the message and  receive it, and even believe it, they make no investment in Him.  No root.  Maybe the proper way to define them would be, "Casual Christians."  As long as it doesn't cost them anything, and is convenient, everything is just dandy.

Now, I think to better explain myself, I will try to lay out for you what I see in scripture regarding these things.

 

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

So this is probably the most direct passage linked to OSAS, and is a wonderful passage that I completely agree with.  There are however some important details to take from this passage, which gel with everything else in scripture.  Now Jesus says no one can snatch the sheep from His hand, or from the Father's hand, so the question is, who are the sheep?

 

Matthew 24:24  For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

 

The implication of this verse, is that the elect cannot be led astray, which fits perfectly with what is said about the sheep.  Would you agree with that?

 

In my opinion, the elect, and the sheep, are one in the same.  Unlike those with no root, they are not susceptible to these false prophets and their signs and wonders.  People with no root, who can believe, are not part of this group.  If they were, they would have a root.  The problem with how OSAS is presented is this, that there is some iron clad guarantee in reciting a sinner's prayer that allows one to do whatever they wish afterward.  It simply does not align with scripture, not the scripture we have discussed, or numerous other examples.

Let me ask you this question, to see how far apart we are on that.  If a believer, living in the last days, accepts the mark of the beast, is that ok?  How does OSAS work there?

 

5 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Who do you believe the child is being born before Israel flees, Rev 12:4-5.

 

Jesus, clearly.

 

Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

 

Revelation 19:15  From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

 

Psalm 22:28  For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.

 

God bless

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18 hours ago, wingnut- said:

What other context can this be taken in?

That Luke and Timothy have the same idea because they're using the same word for "departing". Luke describes these people as having no root. When scripture says you have no root it is telling us that these people do not have the root of salvation. They have not come to a saving faith just yet (nonbelievers).

Rom 11:18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Rev 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Also, notice that Matthew and Mark did not use the word "believe", only Luke did.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - which for a while believe: their faith is a temporary one, like that of Simon Magus; which shows it is not true faith; for that is an abiding grace, Christ, who is the author, is the finisher of it, and prays for it, that it fail not. The Persic version renders it, "in the time of hearing they have faith"; and such sort of hearers there are, who, whilst they are hearing, assent to what they hear, but when they are gone, either forget it, or, falling into bad company, are prevailed upon to doubt of it, and disbelieve it. The Arabic version renders it, "they believe for a small time"; their faith do not continue long, nor their profession of it, both are soon dropped:

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so the question is, who are the sheep?

What's the difference between a sheep and a wolf? The sheep are born again believers and the wolf are nonbelievers that haven't come to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. Notice Acts 20:28 says, "which he bought with his own blood"...

Matt 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

Acts 20:28-29 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

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Let me ask you this question, to see how far apart we are on that.  If a believer, living in the last days, accepts the mark of the beast, is that ok?  How does OSAS work there?

Answer: Haven't believers already accepted their mark until redemption? John 6:27, 1 Cor 9:2, 2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13-14 :rolleyes:

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19 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Jesus, clearly.

 

Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

 

Revelation 19:15  From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

 

Psalm 22:28  For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.

 

God bless

Wasn't Jesus already born 2,000 years ago?

Rev 2:26-28 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give that one the morning star.

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When Jesus and Paul were talking about Lawlessness were they speaking about believers falling away?

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45 minutes ago, RevelationWriter said:

When Jesus and Paul were talking about Lawlessness were they speaking about believers falling away?

For what scripture?

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4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

That Luke and Timothy have the same idea because they're using the same word for "departing". Luke describes these people as having no root. When scripture says you have no root it is telling us that these people do not have the root of salvation. They have not come to a saving faith just yet (nonbelievers).

 

And yet in Luke's account, Jesus specifically says they believe.  You want to discount that, I will not.  You are also skimming past the reason they fall away, which is not properly summarized by your commentaries.

 

Matthew 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

 

Mark 4:17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

 

They specifically fall away because trouble comes on account of the word, meaning they are more concerned about their standing amongst their peers than they are with God.  Jesus warns us about what will happen if we deny Him in front of men, and not to love our lives so much as to shrink from death.

 

4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Also, notice that Matthew and Mark did not use the word "believe", only Luke did.

 

What are you implying, Luke isn't God breathed scripture?   The entire point of multiple witnesses are variations in details, this is part of what lends credibility to the entire history of the bible.  I guess that means what Matthew records in the Olivet Discourse that Mark and Luke do not is rendered moot as well to you?

 

Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

 

4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:
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so the question is, who are the sheep?

What's the difference between a sheep and a wolf?

 

Gotcha, you are not interested in an actual discussion, so you will evade addressing anything and respond to a question with a question that has nothing to do with the topic.  Not interested in red herrings, if this is the direction you want to go, we can end this here.  I have better things to do with my time.

 

4 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:
Quote

Let me ask you this question, to see how far apart we are on that.  If a believer, living in the last days, accepts the mark of the beast, is that ok?  How does OSAS work there?

Answer: Haven't believers already accepted their mark until redemption?

 

Sigh, again, a dodge of a simple question.  I get it, you can't answer it without blowing up your position.  However, we both know that one cannot accept the mark of the beast and retain salvation.

It would be pointless to ask you anymore questions, since you are unwilling to answer them anyway, so I will just share some scripture for anyone reading, and they can ask themselves what the point of all the warnings are in light of your position.  These are all warnings given to the church, so pay attention.

 

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

 

He will remove their lampstand unless the repent, doesn't support your position.

 

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

 

Be faithful unto death, doesn't support your position.

 

Revelation 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

 

Repent or they will end up on the wrong side of His wrath, doesn't support your position.

 

Revelation 2: 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.

 

Again, repentance is demanded, doesn't support your position.

 

Revelation 3:1  “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.

 

Repentance again demanded, starting to see a theme here, doesn't support your position.

 

Revelation 3:17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

 

Again, told to repent, doesn't support your position.  Exactly what do they have to fear if as you claim, there is nothing to fear?  If repentance is only required at one moment in time, then why all the warnings?  These are all letters to churches, not to unbelievers.  There is another theme within them as well, the one who conquers, is victorious, or overcomes receives the promises.

 

3 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Wasn't Jesus already born 2,000 years ago?

 

Yes, and that is covered in Revelation 12 also.

 

Revelation 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.

 

That's a depiction of what Herod did, and why Jesus was born in a manger.  Remember your history, and the census that was enacted to kill Jesus at birth.  I recall from past discussions you hold a very unusual understanding of this chapter, although I had hoped when your predictions didn't pan out you would have seen the error in it, maybe not.

God bless

 

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Matthew 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

Mark 4:17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble (thlipsis) or hardship or persecution (diógmos) or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

thlipsis: tribulation
Original Word: θλῖψις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: thlipsis
Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis)
Short Definition: persecution, affliction, distress
Definition: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

diógmos: persecution
Original Word: διωγμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: diógmos
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ogue-mos')
Short Definition: persecution
Definition: chase, pursuit; persecution.

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What are you implying, Luke isn't God breathed scripture?   The entire point of multiple witnesses are variations in details, this is part of what lends credibility to the entire history of the bible.  I guess that means what Matthew records in the Olivet Discourse that Mark and Luke do not is rendered moot as well to you?

It wasn't true faith, they weren't born again.

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Yes, and that is covered in Revelation 12 also.


Revelation 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.


That's a depiction of what Herod did, and why Jesus was born in a manger.  Remember your history, and the census that was enacted to kill Jesus at birth.  I recall from past discussions you hold a very unusual understanding of this chapter, although I had hoped when your predictions didn't pan out you would have seen the error in it, maybe not.

But Rev 12 is about the future 70th week. Rev 12:1-5 sign came to pass on 9/23/17.

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