Limiting God

[Guest Butero]

20 hours ago, LadyKay said:

People who complain when their church does something new. Like change the music, or put on a play. They look upon such stuff with judgement and scorn and put it stop to it before it can even get off the ground. The church never grows.  They lock themselves inside the church because that is how they always done things, never reaching out to the community around them. Stuff like that. 

That is an interesting comment, and it helps me see where you are coming from.  If you build a church and they have an established congregation that is used to traditional hymns, and then you try to force change on them, you risk losing what you have already.  You would have the same problem if you built a church on strobe lighting and you had music with electric guitars and drums, and then tried to go to a piano and hymn book.  You would risk running off your congregation.  I have seen many churches destroyed doing that.  The people are there for a reason, so if you are going to make big changes, I feel it is best to run it by those who are already members to make sure they are ok with it.  

I used to go to a church that used a hymn book and also had praise and worship songs.  They were formal in how they came to church, and the messages were traditional holiness.  That is what I wanted in a church.  That is why I was there.  The Pastor decided at a certain point to make changes to try to be more up to date.  He went to all praise and worship songs which went on it seemed like forever, singing the same words over and over and over again, and if you weren't seen as praising enough, something was said.  He went to casual dress.  His messages went from traditional holiness to charismatic type sermons.  I couldn't take it anymore, and I left to try to find something I was used to.  That church survived for a while, but eventually closed down.  When you start a church, you need to look ahead towards the future and decide what kind of place you want it to be, because no matter how much you desire it, your congregation won't accept wholesale changes being forced upon them.  

[LadyKay]

9 minutes ago, Butero said:

God can use anything, but I will take it a step further than you and say he can even use evil to bring about his will.  He used an evil Pharaoh in Egypt to create an environment that the children of Israel wanted out of so they were willing to leave.  God used Judas Iscariot to bring about his will, that Christ would go to the cross so we can be saved.  God spoke through a donkey when the soothsayer Balaam was on his way to curse Israel.  That is unconventional.  God used a hand and a pen to write on a wall to tell Belshazar his time was through.  

If we are talking about to get people to a place where they are receptive to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, God can use different methods.  I have heard of people being turned towards the Lord as a result of seeing movies that were about end time events or Jesus, even though the films were not accurate and in one case even blasphemous.  There was one woman that said she came to believe in Jesus through the film, "Jesus Christ, Superstar."  God can use anything, but I am not willing to use any method to try to reach the lost.  I have certain boundaries I won't cross.  God uses the foolishness of preaching to reach the lost, and I feel that if it was good enough then, it is good enough now.  

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

 Wow Butero can it be that we are in agreement with something?     I wanted to say that but thought it would not be understood so I didn't. But than you for covering that for me. 

 

[simplejeff]

5 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

No. I do not think that God has forbidden rock music. But that is a topic for another post. 

David Wilkerson covered it well enough.   What you think has no bearing on what God's Word says for the last few thousand years.  (not worth debating here though - if YHVH permits,  look it up later if HE doesn't answer you directly)

[simplejeff]

YHVH used the world wide flood that slaughtered all the evil persons on earth

to teach His people for all time a lesson about His Righteousness and His Perfect Judgment.

Likewise CHRIST CRUCIFIED ! 

Throughout all of His Word,  He never tolerated sin or sinfulness amongst His people or in their hearts and minds,

nor in the assemblies. 

When the carnal started in Corinth,  it was disciplined and corrected, chastised sternly.

Remember even many people WERE SICK AND DIED

for not being right.

 

[MorningGlory]

I agree, LK.  We simply can't apply principles that apply to us, mere mortals,to God.  He is not limited by, or confined to, anything.

[Guest Butero]

11 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28

 Wow Butero can it be that we are in agreement with something?     I wanted to say that but thought it would not be understood so I didn't. But than you for covering that for me. 

 

I am glad we can find some common ground.  I will tell you something else.  My favorite Bible verse is Romans 8:28.

[Heleadethme]

On 2/15/2018 at 6:09 PM, LadyKay said:

I think sometimes we limit God. When we say stuff like, "God would not use (filling the blank) for his work ". Because it does not fit with our traditional ways of doing things. I think God can and dose work in ways that are unlimited and at times, untraditional. And before you even start down that road I am not talking about things that are clearly from the dark side. Such as Ouija boards, tarot cards or well you know that sort of stuff. Nope! Not what I am talking about. So anyway........Do you agree? Disagree? I am sure you will let me know. 

 

This is something I used to wonder about too.  That God is able to use certain things in His mercy if He so chooses, doesn't mean that we should.  Where can we go from His presence, if we make our bed in the lowest hell, He is there....................but that doesn't mean we should therefore deliberately go and make our bed in the lowest hell.  We are not to put God to the test........and also we are not to follow the world and its ways.

[LightShinesInTheDarkness]

On 2/15/2018 at 8:39 PM, LadyKay said:

People who complain when their church does something new. Like change the music, or put on a play. They look upon such stuff with judgement and scorn and put it stop to it before it can even get off the ground. The church never grows.  They lock themselves inside the church because that is how they always done things, never reaching out to the community around them. Stuff like that. 

 

Anything that a church does or does not do should be because the leaders and the members are convinced that it is God's will, by His Spirit, and by His word.

God would never lead a church to do something that contradicts the teachings or commandments of His written word; but not everything that Christians should or shouldn't do is spelled out in the Bible. Sometimes the Bible gives very plain commands; other times it provides guidelines, and instructions for how to discern God's will in a matter.

In any case, whatever the church does should be by the guidance of God's Spirit and His word, and not merely because of the desire of the people or the leaders. Some "bright" ideas are from demons. And orthodoxy is only as good as what one is orthodox about is actually correct. God-given wisdom and discernment are essential.

And it is important to remember that the end does not justify the means when the means is disobeying God---no matter what good results from doing it. (See the prophet Samuel's rebuke to King Saul in 1 Samuel 15 for example.) 

It is also important to remember that God's desire is not for the churches to grow with bodies, but to grow with saints. Adopting unspiritual and un-Scriptural methods to "reach out" to the unsaved is not pleasing to Him, even if it fills the church building. Christians should always present true and pure Christianity to the world, not a perverted form of it that appeals to carnal minds. Those who desire what is offered will come to the light, because God has given them the desire for it; and those who prefer darkness, will be repulsed and will not come.

Many are called but few are chosen.

Having a packed church is by no means indicative of a church's success in God's objectives. If you're not offering God--as He is--and His truth to people to fill the church, the people who fill the church will not be filling it because they really want God, but because they want the other stuff the church is offering (like entertainment).

The Holy Spirit is not an actor, or a comedian, or a rock star. People who want that need to be at a venue where such things are being offered. The church is not such a place.

[Ana]

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Edited June 15, 2018 by Ana

[Sower]

On 2/15/2018 at 5:09 PM, LadyKay said:

I think sometimes we limit God. When we say stuff like, "God would not use (filling the blank) for his work ". Because it does not fit with our traditional ways of doing things. I think God can and dose work in ways that are unlimited and at times, untraditional.

 

You can never know what insignificant things God might use for His glory. I know this to be true. He has even used me (:
About thirty years back, our church was needing a place for all the youth, like a gym and more classroom space. At a meeting with the pastor and us building/construction guys, we realized we had nowhere near enough funds, and the consensus was to borrow  the funds. As a young believer, first love strong and full of faith, I pushed for starting the project and see how far we could get. Wasn't received well, as many were businessmen, doing things in a solid business manner. Somehow ()  the gym and classroom was completed by our army of volunteers, with no debt. The money, equipment, and labor force just simply showed up. WHEN NEEDED, AS NEEDED. It was an amazing testament to God's supplying all our needs as we needed them. Had we went into debt, we would not have seen what God would do for those who believed. (Limited would be a good word) A step of faith when it might be scary is a excellent way to grow in faith. In God's grace.