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The Significance of the Technical Term "Earth Dwellers" to the Formation of a Biblical Eschatological Model


Steve Conley

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1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:
5 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Just try it . 

What will present day Christians be doing during the tribulation ? 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Unfailing Presence, to answer your question we must qualify what is meant by Christians.

Steve, Greetings in Christ to you as well .

By " Christians "   as a group I feel the term Jesus used is accurate ,  we are simply His " church "  : 

                               

   " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ."    ( Matthew 16 : 18 ) 

 

Given the specific moniker Jesus gave to His true believers do you not find it odd that in  the prolific amount of  tribulation passages you quoted , there is not one mention 

of His  " church "  ? 

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40 minutes ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Steve, Greetings in Christ to you as well .

By " Christians "   as a group I feel the term Jesus used is accurate ,  we are simply His " church "  : 

                               

   " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ."    ( Matthew 16 : 18 ) 

 

Given the specific moniker Jesus gave to His true believers do you not find it odd that in  the prolific amount of  tribulation passages you quoted , there is not one mention 

of His  " church "  ? 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Unfailing Presence, how many heretical doctrines do you suppose have been created by an argument from silence? It has long been claimed that in the book of Revelation there is no mention of the church from chapter 4 to chapter 21, so, it is claimed by pre-tribers that the church must be in heaven at that time. However, a consistent application of that type of hermeneutic would necessitate that the church had been annihilated because, the word "church" is not found in respect to the activities John witnessed on the earth nor to the activities he witnessed in heaven. To be consistent we must also assume that 10 N.T. books: Mark, Luke, John, 1 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter (the word church was added by the translators for clarification but is not in the text), 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude all have nothing to do with the church because the word isn't found in them. What foolishness to use the argument of silence to try to prove anything, let alone to contradict an obvious teaching of the Holy Scriptures concerning Christ's gathering to Himself of His church at His parousia, which takes place after the great tribulation, but before His wrath is poured out on the day of the Lord. There are many other words or truths by which the body of Christ can be recognized other than the word "church". I'm reasonably confident that you could provide a long list of them if you felt so inclined.

You are absolutely right, Jesus will build His church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. But that doesn't mean that the church will not experience great persecution. It has experienced, and is experiencing severe persecution even now. Millions have died as martyrs in the last 100 years alone and believers continue to be persecuted unto death today in various places around the world. Persecution is the lot of the follower of Jesus Christ. If we are to be partakers of His glory in the future we are to be partakers of His sufferings now.

2Ti 3:12  Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1Th 3:3  That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

Php 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Pe 3:14  But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Luk 6:22  Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23  Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

The only difference between the persecution experienced now and that of the great tribulation is that the scope and severity is greatly increased, so much so, that Jesus said that those days would be divinely shortened to save some of the elect (church) alive upon the earth.

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Prepare yourself so that you may overcome in this soon coming evil day.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

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9 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Just try it . 

What will present day Christians be doing during the tribulation ? 

Starving

Never again will they hunger;

Suffering from thurst
    never again will they thirst.

being scorched by the sun

nor any scorching heat

And dying

................

My turn now and try this....

Find me a single pretrib literal trumpet; a literal pretrib command of the voice; literal pretrib resurrection/rapture in scripture.

In otherwords a challenge to all pretrib...for tangible literal evidence.

 

 

 

 

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You are denying the Lord's word on the matter

[1 Corinthians 15:51-58;  1 Thessalonians 4:13-18] 

Edited by Daniel 11:36
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17 hours ago, Steve Conley said:
19 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

Steve, Greetings in Christ to you as well .

By " Christians "   as a group I feel the term Jesus used is accurate ,  we are simply His " church "  : 

                               

   " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ."    ( Matthew 16 : 18 ) 

 

Given the specific moniker Jesus gave to His true believers do you not find it odd that in  the prolific amount of  tribulation passages you quoted , there is not one mention 

of His  " church "  ? 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Unfailing Presence, how many heretical doctrines do you suppose have been created by an argument from silence?

It is not so much the silence of Jesus regarding His church , but His words of promise to a group of worshipers  assured by Him  to be confounded , disheartened , filled with dismay and fear , as a direct result of their devotion to  worshiping a  " holy place " .                                                                    

A "holy place " identified by Jesus as being ground zero of the tribulation.                                                                                                                             

A form of  worship  which would be pure idolatry for any member of His Spirit filled  " church ".

                                            " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place . "  ( Matthew 24 : 15 ) 

 It is not so much Christ's total failure to mention one syllable regarding His faithful , especially at this most pivotal point of the tribulation , but His obvious  pro-active  expenditure of heartfelt concern for a population obviously engaged in a form of  worship that would never be tolerated by God for those already having obtained the Presence of Holy Spirit through Christ  in their hearts . 

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4 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

It is not so much the silence of Jesus regarding His church , but His words of promise to a group of worshipers  assured by Him  to be confounded , disheartened , filled with dismay and fear , as a direct result of their devotion to  worshiping a  " holy place " .                                                                    

A "holy place " identified by Jesus as being ground zero of the tribulation.                                                                                                                             

A form of  worship  which would be pure idolatry for any member of His Spirit filled  " church ".

                                            " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place . "  ( Matthew 24 : 15 ) 

 It is not so much Christ's total failure to mention one syllable regarding His faithful , especially at this most pivotal point of the tribulation , but His obvious  pro-active  expenditure of heartfelt concern for a population obviously engaged in a form of  worship that would never be tolerated by God for those already having obtained the Presence of Holy Spirit through Christ  in their hearts . 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Unfailing Presence, there is no doubt that the Christ rejecting Jews will re-institute worship in a rebuilt temple. And yes, much prophecy centers around Jerusalem and the nation of Israel. However, that doesn't mean that the Scriptures fail to say anything about the body of Christ in relation to these end time events.

Revelation 12 gives us the big picture of what has taken place throughout history and more particularly what will be taking place in the second half of the week in relation to the activities of Satan to thwart God's purpose in the redemption of mankind and creation. There we see, that in the middle of the week, after being cast to the earth, the dragon goes after the woman, but she is hid, fed, and protected in the wilderness. Seeing that he cannot get to her (a portion of Israel) Satan goes after the remnant of her seed that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. He goes after believers in Christ. We see that those who face death in the great tribulation are indeed true Christians, the church, that body of which the apostle John was a member and foundation to. Notice what is said of John concerning the cause of his internment:

Rev 1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Compare that to those who will suffer in the great tribulation.

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 19:10  And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Jesus says that those persecuted in the great tribulation are so for His name's sake.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are those who are in Jesus Christ and therefore, are the other of her seed. We as gentiles were once strangers and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel and the covenants of promise, but now we are reconciled to God together in one new man, Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

It seems as though your problem is that you didn't grasp what Peter had to say about the Church in Acts 2. Under the moving of the Holy Spirit, Peter, on the day of Pentecost, explained what was happening to those that asked him. The fact that unlearned and ignorant fishermen were being heard in the various national languages that those Jews and proselytes who were present for the feast spoke, caused quite a stir. They wanted to know what was going on. Here is what Peter said:

Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter says that Joel prophesied of this event. The promise of the Father, the giving of the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer, was the pouring out of His Spirit upon all flesh that Joel spoke of. This is the beginning of the church, the body of Christ, and therefore the beginning of church age. Peter continues quoting Joel, giving indication that the church age will continue until the day of the Lord. This truth is consistent with the fact that the day of the Lord doesn't begin until after the great tribulation is cut short by the coming of Christ to gather His own to Himself.

The church began when the Holy Spirit was given to indwell the believer. Through the Holy Spirit's instrumentality we are placed into Christ. When we believe, we partake of Christ's baptism of the Holy Spirit, we are immersed into the body of Christ. In the beginning it was only Israelites who were added to the church. It was some time before Cornelius and his household were added. The same shall be true, but in reverse, of the seventieth week, "determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city". Gentiles continue to be added to Christ "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in". Since those who come out of great tribulation are predominately gentiles, this doesn't happen until at least the end of the great tribulation, some time in the second half of the week.

It is as Christ that we are persecuted. Remember, the Lord said, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" Also, He will say in the future judgement, "...as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me" and "...as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." Persecution throughout the great tribulation is due to one's identification with Christ.

The Olivet discourse, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, and Revelation are all about the church. It is a shame that some thief has stolen so vital a portion of the Holy Scriptures from you.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

 

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7 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

It is not so much the silence of Jesus regarding His church ,

Where is Christ silent in the first place?

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5 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

"her seed " " seed of the woman " , is a direct reference to the Jews .

This " remnant "  being the " elect "  , yet another OT term for the Jews , that will come to Christ .

 

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All of chapter 12 is about Israel and not about believing Gentiles

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13 minutes ago, Keras said:
10 hours ago, Unfailing Presence said:

"her seed " " seed of the woman " , is a direct reference to the Jews .

This " remnant "  being the " elect "  , yet another OT term for the Jews , that will come to Christ .

 

Also ethnicity has nothing to do with being the 'elect' or chosen. 

That not all Jews are the elect , but all the elect are Jews . 

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