Last Trump vs The Seventh

[JoeCanada]

On 5/22/2018 at 2:12 AM, JoeChan82 said:

Okay. So we have a guy that thinks Jesus is here, when Acts 1 says he ascended.  Acts 1:10-11 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Then we have a guy who thinks Jesus is going to need some time to get His 1,000 year reign in order when Revelation says He'll rule with a rod of iron.  Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

We also have a guy who insists over and over that Matthew 24 is not for the church and conjures an 8th trumpet based solely on that same assertion along with accusations of falsehood to any that dare ask why. 

Then we fight over who is alive during the 1,000 year reign.  Is it spirit bodies, flesh and bone or flesh and blood, and don't forget the folks who survive the 7 years.

But we also had some very clear explanations from some people who did their best to prove their positions.  I say bravo to those who gave their reasons!  Just for the record, I still think the last trump is the seventh trumpet, but the best of you gave me a lot to think about. Thank you.

Hello Joe....

I won't get into anything about ...."the guy who thinks"...... I'm pretty sure he 'thinks' what scripture says instead of letting scripture interpret scripture.

You said......."Just for the record, I still think the last trump is the seventh trumpet, but the best of you gave me a lot to think about."

That's what I used to think as well. But:

This is where I see the difference.

In 1Thes 4:16, it is the TRUMP of God.................................. In Rev 10:7, it is the TRUMP of an angel.

They can't be the same trump....obviously.

If we look at Jesus' first coming, we see that He came and fulfilled the FOUR spring feasts.....Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost.

At His second coming, He will fulfill the three fall feasts.....Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles. 

Feast of Trumpets (Yom Teruah): This day is a day of blowing trumpets (shofar) calling all to repent. Traditionally this day is preceded by thirty days (and followed by ten days) of Teshuvah or repentance. At the conclusion of the day of Trumpets, one final powerful blast resounds on the shofar. This day prophetically speaks of the final call to repent before the return of the Messiah and the resurrection of righteous that occurs at the final trumpet blast.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,and with thetrump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first...."

This trump of God  is the FINAL TRUMPET BLAST at the Feast of Trumpets......(is that logical?)

If we look at Rev 6 and 8, at the opening of the seals, we see that at the 7th seal, the resurrection of the righteous and the rapture having already taken place. It is AFTER the 7th seal that the angels were given their trumpets....(Rev 8:2)

So, different TRUMPETS.....different (persons) blowing them. 

One is for the call to ARISE. The other is for the call to WRATH.

[JoeChan82]

 

3 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

This trump of God  is the FINAL TRUMPET BLAST at the Feast of Trumpets......(is that logical?)

If we look at Rev 6 and 8, at the opening of the seals, we see that at the 7th seal, the resurrection of the righteous and the rapture having already taken place. It is AFTER the 7th seal that the angels were given their trumpets....(Rev 8:2)

So, different TRUMPETS.....different (persons) blowing them. 

One is for the call to ARISE. The other is for the call to WRATH.

Yes, that does make sense to me and it is logical.  Christ fulfilling the convocations and their respective associated feasts is something I have believed for a while now.  I think that you breaking down the fall feasts in this thread was very helpful.  Well said!

[n2thelight]

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

 

How can the 7th and last trump not be the same?

 

Okay so when is the Day of the Lord,the last trump or the 7th?

Edited May 25, 2018 by n2thelight

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, n2thelight said:

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

 

How can the 7th and last trump not be the same?

 

Okay so when is the Day of the Lord,the last trump or the 7th?

Hi n2,

You know, I think it's mostly based on the fact some do not want the 7th to be the last trump. I know of no group of trumps in scripture that are listed as sounded in order except for the 7 trumps in Revelation. Even if there were another set of numbered trumps sounded in order from first to last, those trumps are not associated with the end of the age, only the 7 we see in Rev. The last trump passages written by Paul are also associated with the end of the age. There is no other proper conclusion than that of the 'last trump' being equal to the 7th trump. 

Some have to have a different 'last trump' to justify personal and/or corporate dogma. That's all. 

Relating the festival of trumpets from Leviticus, and the Talmudic tradition of a 'last trump', is even weaker evidence.

There is no first or last trump in Lev 23:24.  “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts."

It's just a day of rest signified by the sounding of trumpets.

I also find looking to the past in this case in regards to the future to be an unworthy endeavor. 

How can the 7th trump and the last trump not be the same? Only in the imagination, my friend.

[Diaste]

On 5/23/2018 at 4:55 PM, JoeCanada said:

That's what I used to think as well. But:

This is where I see the difference.

In 1Thes 4:16, it is the TRUMP of God.................................. In Rev 10:7, it is the TRUMP of an angel.

They can't be the same trump....obviously.

Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them."

Now who do you suppose gave the angels the trumps? You said it was the trump of an angel; Did the angel give the trump to himself? 

No, the trumps were given to them by our Father. 

All are the trumpets of our Father.

They are the same trumps....obviously.

[JoeCanada]

6 hours ago, n2thelight said:

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

 

How can the 7th and last trump not be the same?

 

Okay so when is the Day of the Lord,the last trump or the 7th?

Hi n2....

 Rev 6:12.......At the opening of the 6th seal, there is a great earthquake, the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

In Joel 2:31..... the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord come

In Rev 6:17......For the great day of his wrath is come

The Day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal. This is also when the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints happens. The trumpets...all 7....and the bowls...all 7....are the Wrath of God

You can't have the Resurrection/Rapture happening at the 7th trumpet, in the middle of God's Wrath. We are NOT appointed to Wrath.

If Christ fulfilled all 4 spring feasts at his first coming, is it not logical that he will also fulfill all 3 fall feasts at his second coming, beginning with the Feast of Trumpets?

" At the conclusion of the day of Trumpets, one final powerful blast resounds on the shofar. This day PROPHETICALLY speaks of the final call to repent before the return of the Messiah and the resurrection of righteous that occurs at the final trumpet blast.

"This day PROPHETICALLY speaks"

[JoeCanada]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them."

Now who do you suppose gave the angels the trumps? You said it was the trump of an angel; Did the angel give the trump to himself? 

No, the trumps were given to them by our Father. 

All are the trumpets of our Father.

They are the same trumps....obviously.

Hi Diaste....

I don't think it makes a difference  who gave trumpets to the angels. It does not explicitly say that the Father gave them the trumpets, though we can assume that he does. Nevertheless..... 

It is GOD HIMSELF who blows the trumpet in 1Cor 15:52............ NOT an Angel

It is the ANGELS who blow the trumpets in Rev 8

[JoeChan82]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

It is GOD HIMSELF who blows the trumpet in 1Cor 15:52............ NOT an Angel

Not be argumentative here, but just a point of order.  1Cor 15:52 doesn't state who blows the trumpet.  That must be inferred from 1Thes 4:16.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Diaste....

I don't think it makes a difference  who gave trumpets to the angels. It does not explicitly say that the Father gave them the trumpets, though we can assume that he does. Nevertheless..... 

It is GOD HIMSELF who blows the trumpet in 1Cor 15:52............ NOT an Angel

It is the ANGELS who blow the trumpets in Rev 8

I don't think 1 Cor 15:52 says anything about God blowing a trumpet. It is a trump OF God. Anything else is assumption. It could mean 'permission', 'a rental', 'particular purpose', 'specific time', and each use is allowed by God, even as he does not sound the trump personally. So out of all those possibilities, why choose the one you did?

Edited May 25, 2018 by Diaste

[seeking the lost]

On 5/23/2018 at 8:38 AM, inchrist said:

On 5/22/2018 at 4:26 PM, seeking the lost said:

 

Firstly

1 cor 15 is directed to the body of Christ.

This is the context

  Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,which you received and on which you have taken your stand. ² By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain

Those in Rev 20:12 is NOT the body of Christ

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 

The body of Christ is not judged by works for salvation And no where is it even hinted this is the body of Christ, in fact the opposite is hinted. Which leads to point 2

Maybe you have not read Matthew 25: 

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

All nations are gathered before the King.  He separates them sheep on the right goats on the left.  All are judged on their works.  This is the last day judgement that you do not want to be at but you will have no choice.  You can make up stories and change words all you want but all will be there.  It is the day of judgement it is the day that the books are opened.

On 5/23/2018 at 8:38 AM, inchrist said:

Secondly

Rev 20:12 they are not raised imperishable, only the body of Christ is raised imperishable.

1 Cor 15:42 emphatically states that the body of Christ is raised imperishable

 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable

Rev 20:12 those people are raised mortal.

Confirmed again in 1 Cor 15:50

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Those in Rev 20:12 have not inherited the kingdom they have to stand before judgment first, they are therefore not the body of Christ because the body of Christ is raised imperishable having the kingdom.

Rev 20:12 is a completely different group of people.

You have a gift of new definitions for words first does not mean first, last does not mean last, and I am not sure what you mean by mortal.  What do you mean mortal.

 

On 5/23/2018 at 8:38 AM, inchrist said:

1 cor 15

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Do not make the same mistake you've done with the concept of the Millennium, that Christ is going to snap his fingers and all of a sudden there's peace. Christ has to rule with a rod of iron, He still has to punish people in the millennium. It is a 1000 year process for Christ. Otherwise if Christ simply just snapped his fingers, he may as well hand everything over to God and we have no need for this transitional 1000 year process.

It is the same thing with this statement

No one who does not have the mark of God will make it into the Millennium.  Revelation 14 gives account of the tares and the wrath they will experience.  It may not be the snap of the fingers but it will be at a cry of a loud voice.   

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is like unto the separation of the tares from the wheat at the end of the age.  All of the tares identified as those who are not wheat will be gathered and burned or thrown into the winepress of the wrath of God.  In all cases it is as Malachi 4:1. For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Matthew 3: 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Jesus clears out all the tares before He gathers the wheat and the Millennium begins.

On 5/23/2018 at 8:38 AM, inchrist said:

No, that is not what John 6:40 is stating,  last day is not the last day of the millennium

Consider the following:

Hosea 6:2

After two days will he revive us: 
in the third day he will raise us up, 
and we shall live in his sight. 

 

Last day is the last day of the 3rd day, it has nothing to do with the last day of the Millennium.

Christ will ressurect us on the 3rd day being the last day

Just like Christ who has raised on the last day of the third day.
 

Interestingly the Last Day is mentioned seven times in "verily verily" John:

    1. John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
        but should raise it up again at thelast day. 
    2. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, 
        may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 
    3. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up 
        at the last day. 
    4. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; 
        and I will raise him up at the lastday. 
    5. John 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 
        If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    6. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 
    7. John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: 
        the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Amazing how everything points to the 7th.

Amazing, we only get to be in the grave two day and then we are raised.  That is just silly.  Last does mean last and no mental gymnastics will keep it from being the day when the rest of the dead are raised.   Quote these words and understand, John 12: 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.   The last day is the day of judgement.  That is when the books are opened and the seep are separated from the goats.