Guest shiloh357 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 31 minutes ago, Last Daze said: No one but you is talking about Old Testament saints. They don't even factor into this discussion. Please stick to the topic at hand. We are talking about new covenant believers and the indwelling Holy Spirit, the body of Christ. That's the scope. Let me post the scriptures again Old Testament saints were saved the same way, by grace through faith as we are. The differences being that they were not "Christians" and there was no "church" at that time. So yes, they were saved. And they do factor into this because you have saved people (saints) who are not part of the Church. Quote If the "tribulation saints" have the Holy Spirit indwelling, they are part of the one body, the body of Christ. There's no other way to read that That only applies to the Church. It does not apply outside the church age to any other group of believers. They are not part of Church. That is the only correct way to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: Old Testament saints were saved the same way, by grace through faith as we are. The differences being that they were not "Christians" and there was no "church" at that time. So yes, they were saved. And they do factor into this because you have saved people (saints) who are not part of the Church. That only applies to the Church. It does not apply outside the church age to any other group of believers. They are not part of Church. That is the only correct way to see it. Snap out of it, Theoden. War is coming whether you wish it or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 50 minutes ago, Last Daze said: Snap out of it, Theoden. War is coming whether you wish it or not. Yes, war is coming and those who don't know Jesus are not ready for it. The fact is that I will not be here when it comes. If you want to stay and go through it, perhaps God will honor your wishes. But as for me, I am leaving when the Lord calls us out. And at least come up with a more mature reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 Daze has no mature reply .... he is a false prophet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 7 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said: Diaste is a false prophet Daniel 11:36 has been banned from the thread for this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_S Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Servant Followers: 25 Topic Count: 275 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 5,208 Content Per Day: 1.00 Reputation: 1,893 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/02/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 8 hours ago, Diaste said: Are you being deliberately provocative? This is why I find you insincere, the inability to address the issue. You think you're clever but it's just avoidance tactics. It's not only the demeanor I see in the advocates of pretrib, it's the foundational premise of, 'we are not destined to wrath, but you other believers are.' This is segregation, special privilege, and exalted status. Whether they want to believe it or not. It has nothing to do with motive or belief, it the natural conclusion of the doctrine that says some believers are saved from calamity and other believers are not. Please reconcile this. Diaste has been removed from the thread for this statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Duke Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 255 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 92 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/03/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 Hi Everyone, I hope this thread can get back on a more friendly tone. I come from a pre-wrath position and have a question for pre-tribs. Are the 144,000 believers before the tribulation starts? Revelation 14 says they are blameless with no lie in their mouth and they are virgins. They are also considered first fruits which is the same attribute given to Christ. Revelation 7 sounds like the tribulation is on hold until the 144,000 are sealed. Back to Revelation 14 we see that the 144,000 are the first to appear with Christ and also they follow him where ever Christ goes. I would submit that the 144,000 are the bride. I know that many think the bride is the greater church but as a husband who would you want with you by your side other than you bride and that is where the 144,000 are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Duke Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 255 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 92 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/03/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said: The thing is Brother Duke: they are specifically taken from the tribes of Israel. The Church, however, are taken from both Jew and Gentile. Also, the 144,000 are chosen after the beginning of the Tribulation, not before. BTW: thanks for asking this and helping get the thread back on track! And welcome to Worthy! HI Sojourner, I know that the the 144,000 are taken from Israel but the Jews are only but one tribe in Israel. There were 13 total tribes in Israel and the Jewish people were only one of those tribes. After Solomon sinned Israel was broken into two parts, The Southern Kingdom encompassing Judah, Benjamin and half the Levites. The other Kingdom was the Northern Kingdom encompassing the other 10 tribes represented as Joseph or his son Ephraim. The Southern Kingdom under Judah was taken captive under Babylon but later returned. The Northern Kingdom under Ephraim was taken captive by Assyria and never returned back to the physical location of Israel. They have become as gentiles but God says he will return them back to their homeland one day. When Paul talks to the gentiles in Romans 11 he is referencing these Israel natives/gentiles that were cast out but under Christ they were grafted back in by belief even though they have not physically returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENOCH2010 Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Senior Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 907 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 382 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/07/1866 Share Posted June 4, 2018 So according to the pre-tribbers during the tribulation when someone reads the Bible and it says Christians are not appointed to wrath, they are supposed to say this is a lie? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Duke Posted June 4, 2018 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 255 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 92 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/03/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted June 4, 2018 10 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said: This not rocket science. And despite the fact that you keep saying the same things, over and over again about what pre-trib believers believe and those claims are false, and you have been corrected on them, numerous times, you are still making those same claims, over and over again, ad nauseam. You did it for 9 more pages after your above post. In each case you lie, and every time you lie, you destroy your own credibility. Every time you resort to a personal insult, which you have done numerous times, in this thread alone, you destroy your credibility, and yes, I report every personal insult you resort to. No need to thank me, it's my pleasure to do so. When I refer to people that are saved, I am referring to the Church Age. The Rapture is the end of the Church Age. The focus returns to Israel, and their eventual reconciliation with God, as both a people and a nation. Believers in the Church Age are not appointed to wrath. Paul tells us that for a reason, but I constantly see mid-tribs and post-tribs pretend like that verse does not exist. Or, they claim it isn't God's wrath. Convenient vehicles to avoid what the verse says plainly, but not actually effective. The Great Multitude are those who are saved during the Tribulation. They are not Church Age believers. I don't think I'm going before the Tribulation because I am somehow "special," even though you keep erroneously telling anybody reading the thread that that is what we believe. One does not need to be a top-rung theologian to understand what "not appointed to wrath" means. You can tell someone you think their doctrine is wrong without being a jerk. There is no need to mis-characterize them and openly lie about what they believe if your own argument has merit. And yet, you do so in post after post. Your delivery is the problem. And you will keep meeting fierce resistance until you can somehow learn to modify your behavior. It isn't resistance to your doctrine as much as it is to your continual lies, and your repetitive personal insults. And you don't have to wonder if we are reporting them. We are, and we will continue to do so until you can somehow learn to stop doing it. Hi Cobalt1959, Is there scripture that shows the church age and that the Rapture is the end of the church age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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