When did the Church begin

[RockyMidnight]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

He was a prophet under the Old Covenant.

Everything up to Christ's death on the cross is OT.

 

Hebrews 9:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁵ And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

The Mediator’s Death Necessary

¹⁶ For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. ¹⁷ For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Cheers!

[SavedOnebyGrace]

14 minutes ago, RockyMidnight said:

Everything up to Christ's death on the cross is OT.

Everything up to Christ's death on the cross is Old Covenant.

Quote

Hebrews 9:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)

¹⁵ And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

The Mediator’s Death Necessary

¹⁶ For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. ¹⁷ For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Cheers!

Jesus Christ was dead and rose from the dead before the Church Age begun.  It was the power of the Holy Spirit sent by the Father and Jesus on Pentecost which began the Church Age.  We should be careful here, Church is not necessary for Salvation.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Saved.One.by.Grace

[RockyMidnight]

1 minute ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Everything up to Christ's death on the cross is Old Covenant.

 

Absolutely, my mistake. Thank you for catching it Saved.One.By.Grace!

Cheers

[Heb 13:8]

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Nope.  The Church was born at Pentecost.   That is the only correct and Christian way to see it.   That has nothing to do with I Cor. 15:8.  Paul was simply using a common rhetorical reference common that at that time to refer to those who received a favor that they did not deserve.

Nope. The church was conceived at Pentecost, and the church is born at first resurrection and rapture. This is corporate conception and birth with 2000 years in btwn. The traditional view is wrong yet again.

Mat 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Within these 2000 years individual conception takes place, in which the body of Christ grows through John 3:16, Rom 10:9, Eph 1:13-14.

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Nope. The church was conceived at Pentecost, and the church is born at first resurrection and rapture. This is corporate conception and birth with 2000 years in btwn. The traditional view is wrong yet again.

No, the traditional is the Bible view and Christian view

Quote

Mat 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

That is talking about conception of Jesus.  Does not apply here.

 

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Act 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

That again, is about the birth of the Church.  The Church was never "conceived" in Scripture.   You need to forget this nonsense and believe the Bible.  

 

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Within these 2000 years individual conception takes place, in which the body of Christ grows through John 3:16, Rom 10:9, Eph 1:13-14.

Nope, that is false teaching.

[Heb 13:8]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

That is talking about conception of Jesus.

Yes, the conception of Jesus is an example of how the church was also conceived through the Holy Spirit, same application shiloh. We also see the church being born through rapture in Rev 12:5. This is where people have a hard time interpreting Rev 12:1-5, is right here.

The word for Jesus ascension in Acts 1:9 is "epairó", and the word in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 is "harpazo". These words have two different meanings in context, a lifting up in victory vs being snatched away through a rescue. Jesus didn't need to be snatched away because He already defeated the devil. 

If these passages occurred 2,000 years ago and is only about Jesus then why didn't John use the word "huios" in all three circumstances below. I believe John is describing the child being born as the church (the body of Christ). 

Even Paul said he felt abnormally born in 1 Cor 15:8 because he hadn't received his resurrected body yet, and as we can see in Rev 2:26-27, Rev 12:5 the church is being mentioned here as ruling with Christ with an iron scepter.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon) the moment he was born. 5She gave birth to a son (huios), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon) was snatched up to God and to his throne.

There's too many contradictions in the traditional view. God Bless.

[Heb 13:8]

And there's the silence.......................... ?

[Willa]

On 6/29/2018 at 6:49 AM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Several questions come to mind.

1. Where there saved individuals before the Church?
2. Did the people John the Baptist baptized need to be re-baptized in the Church to be obedient to Jesus' words?
3. When the 70 were sent out by Jesus, where some saved before the Church started at Pentecost?

Act 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples  Act 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

 Act 19:3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”  Act 19:4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

 Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

The outpouring of the of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was the beginning of the church.  Prior to that time the Spirit had fallen on people for specific purpose but had not come to reside in them.  Prior to the church believers went to the bosom of Abraham.  All who believed prior to Christ's death and resurrection fell into this category of believers looking for their redemption to be provided by the promised Messiah.  

 

 

[ejected]

I could take off on this but hard questions and observations are not tolerated.

Edited July 7, 2018 by ejected

[Fidei Defensor]

My belief is the Church started with Jesus Christ and the Disicples. The first time church (ecclesia) was used was when Jesus said, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail agains.” (Matthew 16:18). 

Eastern Orthodox believe their church began at Pentecost (Acts 2). (The Orthodox Church Simple Guides, Katherine Stark).