144.000 Thousand and Gods focus on Israel.

[Heleadethme]

1 hour ago, Brother Duke said:

Hi Heleadethme,

From scripture we see Israel is God's witness, not the gentiles.  Seeing the 144,000 we see they are from all the tribes of Israel not just the Jews.  How does the one people of Israel become two witnesses?  Easy,  they were divided into two nations or two kingdoms after Solomon sinned.  The Southern Kingdom called Judah; consisting of the Jews and Benjamin along with Levites and the Northern Kingdom represented by the names of Israel/Joseph/Ephraim and consisting of the other tribes of Israel.  These two kingdoms are promised the new covenant.   The gentiles are grafted into Israel and are also inheritors of that promise.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

As for the math with New Jerusalem it is actually a cube. 

Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

The scripture says "the city lieth foursquare" in Rev. 21:16 so that is a useful clue when applied to the 144,000.

Some more pieces of the puzzle:

Act 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Rev 11:3

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 21:14

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Mat 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The Israel of God.

[JoeCanada]

 4 hours ago, Davida said:

You obviously strongly disagree & want to prove us wrong, so why don't you just state your opinion?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so here is what scripture says........

The following scripture is from Rev 7. It follows Rev 6 where the first 6 seals have been opened/unsealed.....

And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”  And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel. (Rev. 7:2-4)......( note...they only have the seal of God )

So these 144,000 are "sealed". And sealed is usually a term that means saved. ( Eph 1:13, 4:30....2Cor 1:22 )

Why are these 144,000 chosen to be sealed?  It is these who place their faith in Jesus when He appears in the sky, prior to the Rapture.

In Rev 14, we see them again....

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads . . . These have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, (Rev. 14:1,4)

Now we see that they have the name of Jesus and the name of God the Father written on their foreheads.

And we are also told that these are redeemed from mankind as "first fruits". They are saved at this point.

It is the first fruits of the harvest that BEGINS when the fullness of the gentiles has come in; the moment after the partial hardening has been lifted.......they can then come to faith.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” (Rom. 11:25-26)

The "fullness of the gentiles has come in" is a harvest term, the "gathering in" of the crop. So, after the full number of the gentiles to be harvested have been saved, it is only then that the "first fruits" of the Jewish harvest would begin. In ancient Israel, the first fruit offerings were given to God, with a "pledge" that the rest of the harvest would come in.

All of Israel is not saved when Jesus comes on the clouds....(Rev 6:16, Rev 1:7, Matt 24:30, Mark 13:26 )

The prophet Joel says that prior to Jesus coming on the clouds, God will send His Spirit in the form of dreams and visions....

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. (Joel 2:28)

This will be a mighty move of the Holy Spirit, and will prepare the apostate remnant for what comes next....

And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.  The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.  (Joel 2:30-31)

After the great move of the Spirit of grace depicted in Joel 2:28 and Zech. 12:10 comes the Celestial Earthly Disturbance, the sixth seal of Rev. 6:12-15 and Matt. 24:29.

Joel continues.....

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:32)

Now we look at the testimony of Revelation.....
The 6th seal is opened and we see the Celestial Earthly Disturbance.....Rev 6: 12-14,  Math 24:29, Joel 2: 30-31

Jesus is seen coming on the clouds and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.......Rev 6: 15-17, Math 24: 29-30, Rev 1:7

The 144,000 are then sealed. They call upon the Lord....Rev 7: 1-8, Joel 2: 32

This small group of first fruits of the Jewish remnant is then raptured into heaved with the saints of all ages....Rev 7: 9-17

They escape the "Day of the Lord"....Joel 2:32

This then fulfills the ancient prophecy from Isaiah....

In that day the Lord will start his threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord in the holy mountain at Jerusalem. (Isa. 27:12-13)

----------------------------------------

So, this is all scriptural. Nothing here is of my own opinion or interpretation.

I have yet to find ANY scripture that supports the notion that the 144,000 of Rev 7 will evangelize the world, or that they will be sealed before or at the beginning of the tribulation. 

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

 4 hours ago, Davida said:

You obviously strongly disagree & want to prove us wrong, so why don't you just state your opinion?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so here is what scripture says........

The following scripture is from Rev 7. It follows Rev 6 where the first 6 seals have been opened/unsealed.....

And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”  And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel. (Rev. 7:2-4)......( note...they only have the seal of God )

So these 144,000 are "sealed". And sealed is usually a term that means saved. ( Eph 1:13, 4:30....2Cor 1:22 )

Why are these 144,000 chosen to be sealed?  It is these who place their faith in Jesus when He appears in the sky, prior to the Rapture.

In Rev 14, we see them again....

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads . . . These have been redeemed from mankind as first fruits for God and the Lamb, (Rev. 14:1,4)

Now we see that they have the name of Jesus and the name of God the Father written on their foreheads.

And we are also told that these are redeemed from mankind as "first fruits". They are saved at this point.

It is the first fruits of the harvest that BEGINS when the fullness of the gentiles has come in; the moment after the partial hardening has been lifted.......they can then come to faith.

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.  And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” (Rom. 11:25-26)

The "fullness of the gentiles has come in" is a harvest term, the "gathering in" of the crop. So, after the full number of the gentiles to be harvested have been saved, it is only then that the "first fruits" of the Jewish harvest would begin. In ancient Israel, the first fruit offerings were given to God, with a "pledge" that the rest of the harvest would come in.

All of Israel is not saved when Jesus comes on the clouds....(Rev 6:16, Rev 1:7, Matt 24:30, Mark 13:26 )

The prophet Joel says that prior to Jesus coming on the clouds, God will send His Spirit in the form of dreams and visions....

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions. (Joel 2:28)

This will be a mighty move of the Holy Spirit, and will prepare the apostate remnant for what comes next....

And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.  The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.  (Joel 2:30-31)

After the great move of the Spirit of grace depicted in Joel 2:28 and Zech. 12:10 comes the Celestial Earthly Disturbance, the sixth seal of Rev. 6:12-15 and Matt. 24:29.

Joel continues.....

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:32)

Now we look at the testimony of Revelation.....
The 6th seal is opened and we see the Celestial Earthly Disturbance.....Rev 6: 12-14,  Math 24:29, Joel 2: 30-31

Jesus is seen coming on the clouds and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.......Rev 6: 15-17, Math 24: 29-30, Rev 1:7

The 144,000 are then sealed. They call upon the Lord....Rev 7: 1-8, Joel 2: 32

This small group of first fruits of the Jewish remnant is then raptured into heaved with the saints of all ages....Rev 7: 9-17

They escape the "Day of the Lord"....Joel 2:32

This then fulfills the ancient prophecy from Isaiah....

In that day the Lord will start his threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel. It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord in the holy mountain at Jerusalem. (Isa. 27:12-13)

----------------------------------------

So, this is all scriptural. Nothing here is of my own opinion or interpretation.

I have yet to find ANY scripture that supports the notion that the 144,000 of Rev 7 will evangelize the world, or that they will be sealed before or at the beginning of the tribulation. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joe, have you considered the implication of the following verse upon your understanding of those who are sealed by God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Thanks

Hallelujah

[JoeCanada]

4 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joe, have you considered the implication of the following verse upon your understanding of those who are sealed by God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Thanks

Hallelujah

Hi Steve.....

That's a great question.

Let's start off by eliminating who they're not. (Revelation 1-9 is chronological.) So Rev 9:4 is after the seals have been opened, Rev 6, after the cosmic disturbances Rev 6: 12-17,  after the sealing of the 144,000, Rev 7:3,  and after the Resurrection/Rapture of those who are in Christ. Rev 7:9.

So we know it's not any of these.

But there are countless others who are left behind. Gentiles and Jews. Many countless who didn't take the Mark of the Beast or worshiped his image. How many of these now repent? How many Jews who mourned when they saw Jesus coming in the clouds, but didn't repent? What about the foolish virgins? Maybe there will be many who hear the angel in Rev 8:13 who gives warnings....and repent.

In Rev 8:13.....we see an angel flying through the midst of heaven...saying with a loud voice....woe woe woe to the inhabitants of the earth...by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound.

God is loving and merciful.....2Peter 3:9..⁹ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I believe that God seals each one who comes to repentance and believes.......even at the 11th hour. He's the God of second chances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve Conley]

8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Steve.....

That's a great question.

Let's start off by eliminating who they're not. (Revelation 1-9 is chronological.) So Rev 9:4 is after the seals have been opened, Rev 6, after the cosmic disturbances Rev 6: 12-17,  after the sealing of the 144,000, Rev 7:3,  and after the Resurrection/Rapture of those who are in Christ. Rev 7:9.

So we know it's not any of these.

But there are countless others who are left behind. Gentiles and Jews. Many countless who didn't take the Mark of the Beast or worshiped his image. How many of these now repent? How many Jews who mourned when they saw Jesus coming in the clouds, but didn't repent? What about the foolish virgins? Maybe there will be many who hear the angel in Rev 8:13 who gives warnings....and repent.

In Rev 8:13.....we see an angel flying through the midst of heaven...saying with a loud voice....woe woe woe to the inhabitants of the earth...by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound.

God is loving and merciful.....2Peter 3:9..⁹ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I believe that God seals each one who comes to repentance and believes.......even at the 11th hour. He's the God of second chances.

 

 

 

 

 

 

1

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joe, If the 144,000 are raptured, why then would they need the seal in their foreheads to protect them from the plagues? He says to hold off on the plagues until they are sealed. I think the obvious implication is that they remain upon the earth.

Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Because of the above verses, I have never even considered that the 144,000 could be raptured along with the church. I'll have to give it some more thought.

Hallelujah

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Joe, If the 144,000 are raptured, why then would they need the seal in their foreheads to protect them from the plagues? He says to hold off on the plagues until they are sealed. I think the obvious implication is that they remain upon the earth.

Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Because of the above verses, I have never even considered that the 144,000 could be raptured along with the church. I'll have to give it some more thought.

Hallelujah

Hi Steve....

Yes, we are to be like Bereans ......Acts 17:11.....¹¹ These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Here are a few scriptures to consider regarding when the Jewish remnant repent.

Ezekiel 5:12 talks about the invasion of the Antichrists armies that will decimate 2/3 of the population in Jerusalem: 

One third you shall burn in the fire at the center of the city, when the days of the siege are completed. Then you shall take one third and strike it with the sword all around the city, and one third you shall scatter to the wind; and I will unsheathe a sword behind them. (Ezek. 5:12)

Zechariah tells us that of the 1/3 remaining, half will go into exile and half will remain in the city: 

Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.  For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. (Zech. 14:1-2)

In the gospel of Luke, Jesus tells us about this event:

For there will be great distress upon the ^[d]land and wrath to this people;  and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:23-24)

There are also a number of Jews who escape into the mountains, and will be protected by the Lord:

But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.  And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.  But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.  (Rev. 12:14-16)

It's at this point that Satan begins his persecution of Christians: 

 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17)

When will the Jewish remnant repent:

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.  (Zech. 12:10)

This is the pouring out of the Spirit mentioned in Joel 2:28-29, which He pours out on the Jewish remnant, which takes place immediately before the celestial earthly disturbance.

But mourning isn't repentance, though it might lead to repentance.

My earlier post then shows when the 144,000 of the Jewish remnant actually repent.

Hope this helps.

 

[angels4u]

17 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Steve....

Yes, we are to be like Bereans ......Acts 17:11.....¹¹ These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Here are a few scriptures to consider regarding when the Jewish remnant repent.

Ezekiel 5:12 talks about the invasion of the Antichrists armies that will decimate 2/3 of the population in Jerusalem: 

One third you shall burn in the fire at the center of the city, when the days of the siege are completed. Then you shall take one third and strike it with the sword all around the city, and one third you shall scatter to the wind; and I will unsheathe a sword behind them. (Ezek. 5:12)

Zechariah tells us that of the 1/3 remaining, half will go into exile and half will remain in the city: 

Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.  For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. (Zech. 14:1-2)

In the gospel of Luke, Jesus tells us about this event:

For there will be great distress upon the ^[d]land and wrath to this people;  and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:23-24)

There are also a number of Jews who escape into the mountains, and will be protected by the Lord:

But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.  And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.  But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.  (Rev. 12:14-16)

It's at this point that Satan begins his persecution of Christians: 

 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17)

When will the Jewish remnant repent:

I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.  (Zech. 12:10)

This is the pouring out of the Spirit mentioned in Joel 2:28-29, which He pours out on the Jewish remnant, which takes place immediately before the celestial earthly disturbance.

But mourning isn't repentance, though it might lead to repentance.

My earlier post then shows when the 144,000 of the Jewish remnant actually repent.

Hope this helps.

 

Joe,the 144.000 will be sealed in the beginning of the tribulation and the rest of Israel if they are unbelievers when Jesus will come back on the end of the tribe,will become believers and so all they all will be saved(through hard times.

[JoeCanada]

10 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Joe,the 144.000 will be sealed in the beginning of the tribulation and the rest of Israel if they are unbelievers when Jesus will come back on the end of the tribe,will become believers and so all they all will be saved(through hard times.

Hi angels4u

Do you have any scriptures that support this notion?......I cannot find any at all.

But I did find these scriptures.

After the 6 seals are opened in Rev 6,..... John writes...."after these things I saw four angels......hurt not the trees......till we have sealed the servants of God....144,000......Rev 7:1-4

John says AFTER these things......AFTER WHAT THINGS?.......AFTER  wars, famines, pestilences, after 1/4 of the population is killed with sword, AFTER a great earthquake and celestial cosmic disturbance ..... AFTER  the kings of the earth and everyone else hide in caves.......(Rev 6:1-17)

.THEN the 144,000 are sealed...... (Rev 7:1-4)

So are you then saying that the tribulation then begins at this point? .....and this is when the 144,000 are sealed?....after all this?

(Remember, there are no chapter breaks in the original writings. They are there for our convenience)

 

[angels4u]

5 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi angels4u

Do you have any scriptures that support this notion?......I cannot find any at all.

But I did find these scriptures.

After the 6 seals are opened in Rev 6,..... John writes...."after these things I saw four angels......hurt not the trees......till we have sealed the servants of God....144,000......Rev 7:1-4

John says AFTER these things......AFTER WHAT THINGS?.......AFTER  wars, famines, pestilences, after 1/4 of the population is killed with sword, AFTER a great earthquake and celestial cosmic disturbance ..... AFTER  the kings of the earth and everyone else hide in caves.......(Rev 6:1-17)

.THEN the 144,000 are sealed...... (Rev 7:1-4)

So are you then saying that the tribulation then begins at this point? .....and this is when the 144,000 are sealed?....after all this?

(Remember, there are no chapter breaks in the original writings. They are there for our convenience)

 

I'm not saying this at all,John seen things "after" he was banished on the Island of Patmos I believe the trib will start around Rev 4. The 144 000 will get sealed to preach the gospel during the tribulation .. don't forget they will be sealed during the trib,but might start preaching after they see what is all happening actually when The Holy Spirit will prompt them ...if God didn't seal them they could have died during the tribulation

[JoeCanada]

9 minutes ago, angels4u said:

I'm not saying this at all,John seen things "after" he was banished on the Island of Patmos I believe the trib will start around Rev 4. The 144 000 will get sealed to preach the gospel during the tribulation .. don't forget they will be sealed during the trib,but might start preaching after they see what is all happening actually when The Holy Spirit will prompt them ...if God didn't seal them they could have died during the tribulation

John sees these things when he was taken to heaven in Rev 4:1...... he was not on the Isle of Patmos, he was in heaven. Everything from Rev 4:1 that John sees is from heaven.

"I believe the trib will start around Rev 4."......Really? Where do you see that in Rev 4?

"The 144 000 will get sealed to preach the gospel during the tribulation......"......please support this with scripture

"don't forget they will be sealed during the trib".........You need to provide some scriptures to back this up

" might start preaching after they see what is all happening"........ again, any scripture will do.

I don't guess or make assumptions or anything. I prove through scripture. 

So angels4u....where is your scriptural proof?