"Tribulation Saints" - A Fly in the Pretrib Ointment

[Last Daze]

According to the pretrib narrative, the body of Christ is made immortal and raptured at some point prior to the great tribulation.  At that point, there are no believers left on the planet.  The problem with that is that there are a multitude of believers beyond number who are martyred that come out of the great tribulation.

 

• After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.  Revelation 7:9
• I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Revelation 7:14

This is problematic for a couple of reasons.  First of all, who are they?  And second of all, where did they come from?

Who are they?

We know that they are new covenant believers because their robes are made white in the blood of the Lamb.  By definition, new covenant believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.  According to these verses, that makes them a part of the body of Christ.  There is one Holy Spirit, and there is one body of Christ.

• There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.  Ephesians 4:4
• For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.  1 Corinthians 7:34

The pretrib doctrine states that the rapture ends the "church age" and that the totality of the body of Christ is with Jesus at the wedding feast.  How can that possibly be when there is still a multitude of new covenant believers that come out of the great tribulation?  Why would God leave out a part of the body of Christ at the wedding feast?  They are clearly new covenant believers who have been baptized into one body by one Spirit so why aren't they included?

Where did they come from?

If all the believers are raptured before the great tribulation then where did that multitude of new covenant believers come from?  A great revival?  That runs contrary to how the Bible describes those days.  When asked about His return Jesus' first words were "See to it that no one misleads you."  Those days are days of deception, not revival.

• The one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

The man of sin comes with all the deception of wickedness.  Also, a deluding influence is sent upon the unbelievers that they might believe a lie.  How can a multitude of unbelievers who are under the influence of a strong delusion from God shake off that deception and come to a martyr's faith?  It doesn't fit what the Bible teaches.

~~~~~~~~~

The only explanation that I've heard is that these "tribulation saints" are a kind of hybrid group all by themselves, a new classification of believers.  I'm told that they are new covenant believers and have the one Holy Spirit indwelling but somehow they are not a part of the one body of Christ.  Is this idea supported anywhere in scripture?  Did I miss something?

[Brother Duke]

I

51 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

According to the pretrib narrative, the body of Christ is made immortal and raptured at some point prior to the great tribulation.  At that point, there are no believers left on the planet.  The problem with that is that there are a multitude of believers beyond number who are martyred that come out of the great tribulation.

I have asked this many times and the only answer I saw but I do not believe myself is that there are two raptures.  A pre-tribulation rapture rapture and then a rapture for the great multitude.  I know of no scripture support for this position.

Another question that is never answered is how many they expect to go in a pre-tribulation rapture?

 

We know that the 144,000 go into the tribulation and that the saints that cannot even be counted go through the tribulation.

The Great Multitude in the tribulation that cannot be counted must be a great many even into the billions.  We know there are only 7 billion people on the earth and we also know that a majority of them do not go into rapture.  Revelations shows us numbers that can be counted and they are 144,000 and even up to 200,000,000 horsemen.  What does that leave left for the pre-tribulation rapture?  Would we even know if they left the earth or if they would even register on a census?

 

Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.  

Edited June 10, 2018 by Brother Duke

[Diaste]

39 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

According to the pretrib narrative, the body of Christ is made immortal and raptured at some point prior to the great tribulation.  At that point, there are no believers left on the planet.  The problem with that is that there are a multitude of believers beyond number who are martyred that come out of the great tribulation.

 

• After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.  Revelation 7:9
• I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Revelation 7:14

This is problematic for a couple of reasons.  First of all, who are they?  And second of all, where did they come from?

Who are they?

We know that they are new covenant believers because their robes are made white in the blood of the Lamb.  By definition, new covenant believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.  According to these verses, that makes them a part of the body of Christ.  There is one Holy Spirit, and there is one body of Christ.

• There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.  Ephesians 4:4
• For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.  1 Corinthians 7:34

The pretrib doctrine states that the rapture ends the "church age" and that the totality of the body of Christ is with Jesus at the wedding feast.  How can that possibly be when there is still a multitude of new covenant believers that come out of the great tribulation?  Why would God leave out a part of the body of Christ at the wedding feast?  They are clearly new covenant believers who have been baptized into one body by one Spirit so why aren't they included?

Where did they come from?

If all the believers are raptured before the great tribulation then where did that multitude of new covenant believers come from?  A great revival?  That runs contrary to how the Bible describes those days.  When asked about His return Jesus' first words were "See to it that no one misleads you."  Those days are days of deception, not revival.

• The one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

The man of sin comes with all the deception of wickedness.  Also, a deluding influence is sent upon the unbelievers that they might believe a lie.  How can a multitude of unbelievers who are under the influence of a strong delusion from God shake off that deception and come to a martyr's faith?  It doesn't fit what the Bible teaches.

~~~~~~~~~

The only explanation that I've heard is that these "tribulation saints" are a kind of hybrid group all by themselves, a new classification of believers.  I'm told that they are new covenant believers and have the one Holy Spirit indwelling but somehow they are not a part of the one body of Christ.  Is this idea supported anywhere in scripture?  Did I miss something?

I don't think you missed anything. This is a troublesome truth for the pretrib doctrine and difficult to adjudicate in a satisfactory manner. To add to the above I have posed a question several times that is ignored as the doctrine cannot answer this all important query. 

For one, the pretrib doctrine supposed the last week is equivalent to the wrath of God. This is unsupported and therefore a false premise. But it allows for a pretrib rapture as, "we are not appointed to wrath", which is true. Attached to the false equivalency of 70th=wrath then, Rapture=pretrib. Internal consistency, false conclusion. But again, this reasoning allows for the pretrib rapture.

According to the doctrine then all the 70th week is God's wrath, or as some depart from this, only the second half is Gods' wrath. In the second half the GT takes place and as you quoted above, "I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Revelation 7:14" an innumerable host of believers stand before the throne and around the throne. Pretrib's doctrine demands this group of believers arrive in the throne room after enduring the wrath of God.

This question can be added to the Who? and Where? queries from the OP:

If pretrib doctrine equates the GT and God's wrath, and the church escapes this time through "we are not appointed to wrath", then how is it a vast group of believers endured God's wrath to stand before the throne in heaven?

 This dives right into the segregation of the body as you stated. Where is this segregation supported by scriptural fact?

I would also like to touch on this 'church age' thing. The dispensation of grace and faith is the origin of the church age, so it's said. We have moved out of the dispensation of law and we now enjoy grace. What freedom! No longer under the law the path to God is now through Christ and not burdensome liturgy and ritual. 

I don't buy it. It has always been faith and grace. Job was justified by faith. The original patriarch of the congregation was counted as righteous because of faith in God's word and by the grace of the almighty Lord. If we are in Christ we are of the seed of Abraham with all the attendant promises and warnings. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile. The seekers of El Shaddai will know this through the Spirit of God; there has never been any segregation in the body of Christ from the foundation of the world. It has always been Jesus Christ, it is now all about Jesus, and it will always be about Jesus, forever.

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.""

This is for every soul from every age. There is no 'church age', no segregation of the 'church', the 'body', OT saints, nor GT saints.

"If You Are Christ’s, Then You Are Abraham’s Seed. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

This alone should put the matter to rest.

[Daniel 11:36]

You have the wrong interpretation of Revelation 7:9-17

This is the pre-tribulation church

All of these will be made immortal just before the 7oth week decreed for Israel comes

 

Revelation

 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came [away from] out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

This is the common error of those who teach post tribulation theology 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[ENOCH2010]

27 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

You have the wrong interpretation of Revelation 7:9-17

This is the pre-tribulation church

All of these will be made immortal just before the 7oth week decreed for Israel comes

 

Revelation

 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came [away from] out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

This is the common error of those who teach post tribulation theology 

This is the common error of those that teach the pre-trib doctrine, they add and take away scriptures to make their doctrine tickle ears. 

Read your Bible son don't change it to suit yourself

Edited June 10, 2018 by ENOCH2010

[Diaste]

43 minutes ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

You have the wrong interpretation of Revelation 7:9-17

This is the pre-tribulation church

All of these will be made immortal just before the 7oth week decreed for Israel comes

 

Revelation

 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came [away from] out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

 

This is the common error of those who teach post tribulation theology 

This, "These are they which came [away from] out of great tribulation, " is tomfoolery. "Away from"? Let me show you again:

 

erchomai: to come, go
Short Definition: I come, go
Definition: I come, go.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Definition
to come, go

 

ek or ex: from, from out of
Short Definition: from out, out from among, from
Definition: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.

HELPS Word-studies

1537 ek (a preposition, written eks before a vowel) – properly, "out from and to" (the outcome); out from within. 1537 /ek ("out of") is one of the most under-translated (and therefore mis-translated) Greek propositions – often being confined to the meaning "by." 1537 (ek) has a two-layered meaning ("out from and to") which makes it out-come oriented (out of the depths of the source and extending to its impact on the object).

'Erchomai ek' is  either 'come from the middle out', or 'go from the middle out'. In proper speech 'ek' is 'out from going to', a complete action of leaving a condition and going to another condition. From the above analysis of the definition of 'ek' it's apparent what is 'come out from' has had direct influence on whatever has 'come out'. That's not the case in the Pretrib interpretation, meaning the Pretrib stance on this is incorrect. 

The fragment could be written thus, "These are they which come out from the inside of great tribulation,"

The action 'away from', as in 'avoidance' is not represented here. Here is 'away' in the Greek NT:

Strong's Greek: 683. ἀπωθέομαι (apótheó) -- to thrust ...Strong's Greek: 667. ἀποφέρω (apopheró) -- to carry off ...Strong's Greek: 4879. συναπάγω (sunapagó) -- to lead away ...

Strong's Greek: 851. ἀφαιρέω (aphaireó) -- to take from ...... Strong's Concordance. aphaireó: to take from, take away. Strong's Greek: 520. ἀπάγω (apagó) -- to lead away

Strong's Greek: 617. ἀποκυλίω (apokulió) -- to roll away Strong's Greek: 3583. ξηραίνω (xérainó) -- to dry up ...Strong's Greek: 1821. ἐξαποστέλλω (exapostelló) 

Strong's Greek: 4014. περιαιρέω (periaireó) -- to take ...Strong's Greek: 654. ἀποστρέφω (apostrephó) -- to turn ...Strong's Greek: 1578. ἐκκλίνω (ekklinó) -- to deviate, to ...

Strong's Greek: 3855. παράγω (paragó) -- to lead by, to ...Strong's Greek: 3901. παραῤῥυέω (pararreó) -- to flow ...Strong's Greek: 3911. παραφέρω (parapheró) -- to bring to ...

Strong's Greek: 645. ἀποσπάω (apospaó) -- to draw off ...Strong's Greek: 628. ἀπολούω (apolouó) -- to wash off ...Strong's Greek: 868. ἀφίστημι (aphistémi) -- to lead ...

Strong's Greek: 3133. μαραίνω (marainó) -- to quench ...Strong's Greek: 1601. ἐκπίπτω (ekpipto) -- I fall out ...Strong's Greek: 3895. παραπίπτω (parapiptó) -- to fall ...

Now with all the different ways to say 'away from', why do none of these appear in Rev 7:13? Because that's not what Jesus meant. That's why 'ek' appears.

While I find these word studies enlightening and interesting, having to go through a word study to prove a point that should come about through normal reading, common sense, understanding our Father's character and plan, and the leading of the Spirit, is a woeful commentary on the mindset of the body of Christ.

Repent, trust, believe and let the Spirit lead, in Jesus name.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Diaste

[Daniel 11:36]

The correct understanding is "away from" .... but it makes no difference, "out of" is the same if understood correctly

Believe what you want, but Revelation 7:9-17 is telling of the pre-tribulation church in heaven before the coming tribulation upon the earth 

Some people just cannot stand the truth and in your case I believe that you have been deceived .... many scriptures show the followers of Jesus Christ already in heaven just before, during, and after the coming tribulation period [1st Corinthians 15:51-58; 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1, 13:6; 17:14; 18:4; 19:1-10; 19:14; 20:4 .... those on thrones]

It sounds to me like you are pushing your narrative against the Lord's word for some reason 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Daniel 11:36

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

According to the pretrib narrative, the body of Christ is made immortal and raptured at some point prior to the great tribulation.  At that point, there are no believers left on the planet.  The problem with that is that there are a multitude of believers beyond number who are martyred that come out of the great tribulation.

 

• After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.  Revelation 7:9
• I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  Revelation 7:14

This is problematic for a couple of reasons.  First of all, who are they?  And second of all, where did they come from?

Who are they?

We know that they are new covenant believers because their robes are made white in the blood of the Lamb.  By definition, new covenant believers have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them.  According to these verses, that makes them a part of the body of Christ.  There is one Holy Spirit, and there is one body of Christ.

• There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling.  Ephesians 4:4
• For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.  1 Corinthians 7:34

The pretrib doctrine states that the rapture ends the "church age" and that the totality of the body of Christ is with Jesus at the wedding feast.  How can that possibly be when there is still a multitude of new covenant believers that come out of the great tribulation?  Why would God leave out a part of the body of Christ at the wedding feast?  They are clearly new covenant believers who have been baptized into one body by one Spirit so why aren't they included?

Where did they come from?

If all the believers are raptured before the great tribulation then where did that multitude of new covenant believers come from?  A great revival?  That runs contrary to how the Bible describes those days.  When asked about His return Jesus' first words were "See to it that no one misleads you."  Those days are days of deception, not revival.

• The one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.  For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.  2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

The man of sin comes with all the deception of wickedness.  Also, a deluding influence is sent upon the unbelievers that they might believe a lie.  How can a multitude of unbelievers who are under the influence of a strong delusion from God shake off that deception and come to a martyr's faith?  It doesn't fit what the Bible teaches.

~~~~~~~~~

The only explanation that I've heard is that these "tribulation saints" are a kind of hybrid group all by themselves, a new classification of believers.  I'm told that they are new covenant believers and have the one Holy Spirit indwelling but somehow they are not a part of the one body of Christ.  Is this idea supported anywhere in scripture?  Did I miss something?

Post New Covenant Believers. 

Are there still some Jews who adhere to the Old Testament ways.  Animal sacrifices will come back.

Lets look;  There are O.T. Saints looking forward to that day of their redemption.  Pre - Flood, Post Flood, Pre - Israel, and those of Israel.  All are Saints and of the elect, and coming to the Saving knowledge before the fact.  Next the Bride of Christ, also Saints and of the elect and came to the Saving knowledge during the fact.  Next 70th Week (Tribulation Saints), Not of the Bride, these are all Saints and of the elect, but came to the Saving Knowledge after the fact, those left behind.  Then there will be Saints born during the Mill.  All these Saints have their names in the Lambs Book of Life.  Yet not all are the Bride.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Daniel 11:36]

Here they are [Revelation 14:12-13; 20:4 .... those who become believers and are killed during the tribulation period]

[Brother Duke]

3 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Believe what you want, but Revelation 7:9-17 is telling of the pre-tribulation church in heaven before the coming tribulation upon the earth 

I submit the tribulation saints are the same people that are made reference to in the 5th seal just before the 6th seal which corresponds with Matthew 24.

Rev 6:11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Here is the 6th seal that lines up with Matt 24

Rev 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken

Anything before the 6th seal is tribulation. After the 6th seal is wrath.