"Tribulation Saints" - A Fly in the Pretrib Ointment

[Guest shiloh357]

35 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

It seem that you too have a shallow understanding of the Christian life as does Sojo.  Martyrdom is expected of all believers.

The Bible doesn't say that, at all. 

16 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

The term "body of Christ" goes well beyond that metaphor.

• While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”  Matthew 26:26
• He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:54

The body of Christ is Truth and those who walk in the truth (eat His flesh) and receive forgiveness (drink His blood) are a part of His body that will be raised up on the last day.

Way to misapply Scripture to an issue that it wasn't addressing.   Your approach sounds very Roman Catholic.

The truth is that Jesus was addressing the Jewish perspective on the Law of Moses wherein it was seen as the means of gaining eternal life.  In Jewish theological thought, the Law was likened to the fruit of the Tree of Life as well as living water. The Law was the spiritual food of the Torah observant Jew and it was through the study and application of the Law of Moses that eternal life was gained. 

Jesus set Himself up as the 'food and drink"  that leads to eternal life.  In doing so Jesus was claiming to be greater than the Law, greater than Moses and in fact, claiming to be God in that only God can offer eternal life.   

It has nothing to do with the Church as the Body of Christ.   

[Daniel 11:36]

Shiloh357 is absolutely correct

[JoeChan82]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:26 AM, Diaste said:

I don't buy it. It has always been faith and grace. Job was justified by faith. The original patriarch of the congregation was counted as righteous because of faith in God's word and by the grace of the almighty Lord. If we are in Christ we are of the seed of Abraham with all the attendant promises and warnings. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile. The seekers of El Shaddai will know this through the Spirit of God; there has never been any segregation in the body of Christ from the foundation of the world. It has always been Jesus Christ, it is now all about Jesus, and it will always be about Jesus, forever.

Everybody is familiar with the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus is dealing with the subject of the necessity of the new birth.  In verse 10 Jesus asks this question: 

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand being born again and the work of the Holy Spirit as a master of Israel.  This verse does much more than merely suggest that salvation is an Old Testament doctrine, it states it clearly.

[enoob57]

We are to rightly divide the Scriptures by cutting them straight 
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The one division, those opposed to pre-trib understanding, is that of the tribulation of the believer:
As of now we are in tribulation by sin, the devil and the curse placed upon the world by God for it... this is what Jesus spoke of here
John 16:33 (KJV)
[33] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
1 Peter 5:8 (KJV)
[8] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
John 15:18 (KJV)
[18] If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
[19] If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
[20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
[21] But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

now the right of division comes into fact of here

Luke 3:7 (KJV)
[7] Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
*Note this wrath is not yet here  'to come'

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
*Note this period is like no other time in human history up to this event Jesus spoke of
thus
This wrath to come is The Great Tribulation that is to come and is God pouring His wrath out for the rejecters of His Son
Ephesians 5:6 (KJV)
[6] Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

*note the wrath spoken of here, during the church age, is still not come

1 Thessalonians 1:9 (KJV)
[9] For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The distinction is clearly made
Ephesians 2:3 (KJV)
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV)
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The Great Tribulation is the appointed wrath where God pours out His wrath and the elect that is there could only be for two reasons:
1. They were converted during...
2. They have added to the Scripture...
Revelation 22:18 (KJV)
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
 

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by enoob57

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, JoeChan82 said:

Everybody is familiar with the dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus is dealing with the subject of the necessity of the new birth.  In verse 10 Jesus asks this question: 

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand being born again and the work of the Holy Spirit as a master of Israel.  This verse does much more than merely suggest that salvation is an Old Testament doctrine, it states it clearly.

Exactly. I think many are unaware that much of the NT is taken directly from the OT. The NT reveals the truths established from the very beginning of creation, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[Daniel 11:36]

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

 

This is true .... Enoob is exactly correct .... delivered from the coming tribulation period [Revelation 3:10] 

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Cobalt1959 said:

No, martyrdom is possible for all believers.  The possibility for being martyred for Christ depends on the culture and political atmosphere that one lives in.  The concept that if one is a Christian they should also expect to be killed at all times is ludicrous, and honestly, it is a self-imposed construct that post-tribbers manufacture to make their doctrine work.  That every Christian has to expect death in the form of being killed by the secular world is not biblical.

As Sojo says, I see people continually hoping the Church has to suffer during the Tribulation in spite of the fact that God says the Church is not appointed to wrath.  If you are so hopeful you will be martyred, then why are you not in a country that would make that a much greater possibility such as North Korea, China, or any Muslim country one could name?  Because you want martyrdom for everyone else, but not you. 

So when are you leaving?

 

58 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

Exactly; if martyrdom was expected of all believers, then those who died in any other way aside from martyrdom  (accident, illness, old age) would have been disobeying the Lord (like they had a choice! Figure that one out, predestination crowd! ).

When Scripture says " Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His godly ones. " (Psalm 116:15, NASB), the Lord isn't sitting there on His throne, hands clasped, going "Awwwww! He got his head chopped off for me!!! How precious!!!". The Hebrew word used here is yaqar (Strong 3368), meaning "precious, rare, splendid, weighty"; in other words, costly. God doesn't waste lives arbitrarily or flippantly, throwing them away in a frivolous or flighty mood when He's "bored".

I can only conclude that you are clueless about what I was referring to.

[Brother Duke]

9 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

It's pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard in Oklahoma and say "We should all be ready to die for the Lord!"  Easy when the chances of being killed for your faith are extremely remote.  These people are always joyful about other people suffering and dying, but for the same prospect for them, not so much.

Are you serious?  The tribulation will be horrifying.  We are not asking anyone to die but still they will.   Christ said there will be tribulation and if the days were not cut short the elect may even have perished.  That means the elect will be there.  I have accepted that I may die and I ask God to lead me to follow his will.   

 

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
 

 

 

[JoeChan82]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:05 AM, Last Daze said:

According to the pretrib narrative, the body of Christ is made immortal and raptured at some point prior to the great tribulation.  At that point, there are no believers left on the planet.  The problem with that is that there are a multitude of believers beyond number who are martyred that come out of the great tribulation.

I think the original question put before us should be addressed.  The idea that dead saints need to be resurrected to go through tribulation is absurd. Nobody said that. Nobody even suggested that. The division between tribulation and wrath is important, but even that cannot gain consensus on this board. So what about the question in the quote above.

 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

If you believe that "he who now letteth" is none other than the Holy Spirit, and that he dwells in each believer, and that the church will be raptured out in its entirety taking him out of the way, then how can anybody be saved after the rapture?  Yet we a great multitude of believers during Daniel's 70th week. Please don't tell me that the Holy Spirit is not essential for salvation.

[enoob57]

1 hour ago, Cobalt1959 said:

It's pretty easy to sit behind a keyboard in Oklahoma and say "We should all be ready to die for the Lord!"  Easy when the chances of being killed for your faith are extremely remote.  These people are always joyful about other people suffering and dying, but for the same prospect for them, not so much.

Is there any other state in which He might wish to live … he's giving the keyboarders in OK a bad name