Tribulation is not Wrath

[JoeChan82]

2 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Odd.  You disparaged someone else a mere couple posts above this one for not using scripture, (adding virtually nothing to the conversation except sarcasm and smugness) but you offer no scripture either to re-enforce your views.

Yes. You are right. Except for the part in parenthesis. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by JoeChan82
I reread my own post.

[Steve Conley]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Both of the red highlighted verbs are in the Greek aorist tense, generally translated as simple past tense: "thy/his wrath came..."

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, you don't know what you're talking about when you speak of the aorist meaning past tense. I know you are not alone in that misunderstanding, but you're wrong. I'll provide you with a couple links, which, if you are teachable, will help you on the subject.

https://www.alankurschner.com/2016/10/11/a-reply-to-pretrib-thomas-ross-and-his-faulty-understanding-of-the-aorist-greek-tense-form-in-revelation-617/

https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/08/04/a-primer-on-the-semantics-of-the-koine-greek-tense-form/

All praise, honour, and glory be unto our Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ

[Steve Conley]

2 hours ago, Behold said:

 

You should do a deep study of 2nd Thessalonians 1:8 regarding what you posted and see if it agrees.

 

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Behold, you are correct, Paul calls God's retributive vengeance, on the day of the Lord, "tribulation" in verse 6. However, this pressure is not that tribulation spoken of in Matt 24.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Hallelujah

[Diaste]

28 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

 People would not be screaming that "God's wrath had come" if it weren't there by that point.

Your argument is akin to someone yelling: "I'm about to be run over by a 18 wheeler that's 20 miles down the road!!!"  Not to mention the thing you are forgetting: from the first seal broken until the last bowl poured, it is at the command of God. Keep in mind that by the time the 6th seal is broken, about 1/4 of the planet's population is dead; I think it's safe to say by that point, God is more than slightly upset!

 To consider as well:  Jesus promised to send us a "comforter" who would never leave us. 2nd Thessalonians 2 says that the Restrainer must be removed in order for the Antichrist to emerge; with Scripture stating that the Restrainer is a who and not a what, that means that the Restrainer has to be a person.  In order to restrain the unspeakable evil of the Antichrist,  the Restrainer must be someone of superior power. Since Satan would not restrain his own, he cannot be it. Michael dared not rebuke Satan when contending for the body of Moses, so Michael would be too weak. The Church, aside from God, has no ability to restrain in its' own power. Therefore, the only one (by process of elimination) would be God. In this case, the Holy Spirit.

And since the Lord promised to "never leave you nor forsake you", the Holy Spirit's current ministry is not going to be ended on earth while leaving us here.

One last thought: if  there is "Tribulation", "Great Tribulation" and then "God's Wrath", what you're forgetting is that the Great Tribulation was described as the single worst time in history that was so bad, there would be  no other time like it. And since it is from Revelation 13 on that the Antichrist is on the world stage, Satan's wrath against believers is being poured out as well during this point.

Are you seriously telling me that "God's wrath", which comes from the Creator of the universe, is going to pale in comparison to a being He created?

2 Thess 2.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know WHAT withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

The red areas show the coming of Jesus and the gathering, and the day of Christ only occur after the two events in blue. These are events are not a person. Even if the man of sin is a person it's the event of drawing back the curtain that is the revealing event in view.

Verse 6 reads 'what' not who. That 'what' is the two event immediately preceding, "And now you know what...", which are rebellion and revealing of the beast. The green highlight goes back to the thesis. The whole point of 2 Thess 2:1-6 is the coming of Jesus, the gathering and the day of Christ and when they will occur. The 'he' in v 6 is Jesus. This can be no other. If it is the beast, then the revealing of the beast would have to occur before the beast could be revealed.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The highlight above is not rendered accurately. Better is, "Merely hold on until he emerges on the world stage in the middle." Which fits nicely with v 8, e.g., "Merely hold on until he emerges on the world stage in the middle. And then shall that Wicked be revealed,"  Coherent and understandable Paul tell us exactly when the beast is revealed, in the middle of the week, just as Daniel said, the same as Jesus laid out in Matt 24, "Wait until he emerges in the middle, that's when he is revealed." reinforces what Paul said in v 4 and gives more detail concerning exactly when this happens.

When I first heard about the return of Jesus many years ago it was from pretrib advocates. The exploitation of 2 Thess 2 by pretrib to prove their point always bothered me, as did the false equivalency of GT and God's wrath. It's never explained how a 'what' becomes a 'who' except by conviction of the advocate, and the same applied to GT=wrath. 

Since it is fully explained by Paul that Jesus' coming, the gathering, and the day of Christ are equivalent in timing, and the beast rises before all these, and scripture delineates GT from wrath, it seems pretrib thought lacks the resources for continued viability. 

[n2thelight]

There is a massive multi-million dollar industry dedicated to the assumption that the great tribulation is equal to the wrath of God. These proponents of the pre-tribulation rapture make millions of dollars writing books and making movies assuring Christian they do not have to suffer persecution or tribulation for their faith prior to the rapture.

But these massive, complicated and bulky theories are held up by the flimsiest of Scriptural speculation and wordplay. It is like trying to lift the weight of an elephant off the ground using a kite string. No matter how hard you try the weight will break that string. Defining the great tribulation as the wrath of God is the kite string that can’t support the theory. It is the lynchpin that connects the whole thing. Without it, the entire theory falls apart. The Left Behind doctrines are nothing more than giant sand castles, giving people the false hope of evacuation just prior to a tsunami of end-time persecution.

So instead of soberly preparing people to face the tribulation to come, the American evangelical church is throwing parties in their fortresses made of sand. Instead of putting on the whole armor of God, the church is putting on its party hat. Instead of making solid disciples, the church is making spiritual revelers, drunk on the wine of end-time myths and fables. Once these notions are dispelled, the entire theory is washed away by the reality of Christ’s sobering predictions.

 READ MORE HERE…

https://www.alankurschner.com/2017/11/09/the-great-tribulation-is-not-gods-wrath/

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by n2thelight

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

 People would not be screaming that "God's wrath had come" if it weren't there by that point.

• And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16-17

At this point when the sixth seal is opened, the time of great tribulation has ended (Matthew 24:29).  The deceived of the world had been martyring believers for days, if not months, and then the sky opens up revealing "Him who sits on the throne, and the Lamb."  The sixth seal is a transition from the unfettered "great tribulation" to "tribulation" (for the duration of the 42 months) and it introduces the time of God's judgment and wrath which is seen in the seven plagues of the seventh seal which follows.  At that point, tribulation and God's judgment/wrath run concurrently.

The seven plagues (trumpets/bowls) are God's judgment of those who persist in their idolatry of worshiping the man of sin.  They are corrective discipline for the believers who weren't prepared and succumbed to his deception.  They are God's final call to repent before Jesus returns and the wicked are destroyed.  The seven bowls of God's wrath aren't actually poured out until the final few days before the two witnesses are killed.

In the above verse, the people realize that they are entering a "judgment phase" which culminates in God's wrath.  They refer to it as "the great day (time) of their wrath."  It is a part of the time of great distress that hasn't been seen since there was a nation.

• And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time.  Daniel 12:1b

The 42 months of distress begins shortly after the Abomination of Desolation when the "worship or die" ultimatum becomes law.  This is the initial segregation of believers from unbelievers resulting in martyrdom.  It lasts until the sixth seal is opened.  Then comes the judgment/wrath of the seven plagues which again segregates believers from unbelievers through the call to repentance.  After all who are going to repent do so, the two witnesses are killed which ends the 42 months of great distress.

Hope that helps.

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I've heard some people say that tribulation is the same thing as wrath and that the words can be used interchangeably.  However, after doing some digging, I've found out that such a claim is simply not true.  Here are the Greek words for each and the definitions:

~~~~~

Tribulation

θλῖψις thlîpsis - pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

Wrath

ὀργή orgḗ - properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:—anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

~~~~~

The words tribulation and wrath come from different Greek words and have different meanings.  I couldn't find anywhere that the Greek word for tribulation is ever translated wrath, or vice-versa.  If they are the same words, or similar, you'd expect some overlap in the translations or semantics but I couldn't find any.

I've yet to hear a rational explanation as to why they mean the same thing when they're clearly different.  Granted, both tribulation and wrath are similar in that they are unpleasant when experienced but does that make them the same?  No.  Is a hurricane the same thing as a tsunami because they both cause flooding?

I would encourage those who are interested in end time prophecy to make this distinction that scripture makes between these two words in order to get a clearer understanding of the things to come.  Those who believe that tribulation and wrath are the same thing, can you explain why?  They certainly look distinctly different to me, but maybe I've missed something.

Tribulation only means TROUBLES....Jesus opens the Seals and thus allows the Anti-Christ to come forth, it kicks off Gods Wrath against this world, during this time 2/3 of all Jews will be killed all because they DID NOT REPENT like the other 1/3 of the Jews who accepted Jesus and fled to the Wilderness in Petra where God Supernaturally protects them. 

So this Anti-Christ is doing Satan's biding. Well who kicked Satan out of Heaven and why? God orders Micheal to do so of course, because its time for Gods Wrath, he sends Satan to the earth knowing that Satan knows his time is short and he is very angry, God knows all of this of course, thus its Gods Wrath. He is allowing the World to get a taste of their own hearts desire !! This is what they want, they don't want God. The Church is in Heaven and the REPENTANT Jews are protected. Thus the time of GREATEST TROUBLES EVER will kick off, will it not?  1.5 Billion to 2 Billion people worldwide will die and 2/3 of all Jews will die. 

I personally don't think most people even vaguely understand the book of Revelation or we wouldn't get hundreds of opinions about the same thing. The Troubles begins with Gods Wrath, the Anti-Christ is released to GO FORTH, the Wrath of God is come upon mankind, the first troubles are wars, then Gods Supernatural plagues kick in. 

It just kind of boggles my mind at the hoops people try to jump through to say that the Anti-Christ is not Gods Wrath on mankind, of course it is. 

 

 

[Last Daze]

5 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

It just kind of boggles my mind at the hoops people try to jump through to say that the Anti-Christ is not Gods Wrath on mankind, of course it is. 

• Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.  Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:1,7

7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I personally don't think most people even vaguely understand the book of Revelation or we wouldn't get hundreds of opinions about the same thing.

Agreed.

[Steve Conley]

15 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

It just kind of boggles my mind at the hoops people try to jump through to say that the Anti-Christ is not Gods Wrath on mankind, of course it is. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

So, it is true that you believe that God focuses His wrath upon His faithful martyrs. Those who are saved by the blood of the Lamb and those who will be faithful in their testimony, confessing Christ before men, you say, will receive God's wrath. What kind of twisted and pernicious teaching is that?

The Antichrist is killing those who won't take the mark or worship him, and you think he is the minister of God's wrath. For Christ's sake, man get your head clear.

The great tribulation is Satan's wrath (Rev 12:12) through the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers upon God's people (the church, elect, Israel). The GT is ended when God removes the elect from the earth. Then God's wrath begins the day of the Lord, which is focussed upon the earth dwellers. This fierce wrath starts with the blowing of the first trumpet.

Hallelujah

[Revelation Man]

32 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.  Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:1,7

Which means it didn't start there right? All of the wrath comes from the Seven Seals that Jesus opened. The Seven Trumpets ARE the 7th Seal and the Seven Vials ARE the 7th Trumpet which comes out of the SEVENTH SEAL. 

Those are Bowls of Gods Wrath, what do you think the Trumpets are? I mean 1/3 of the Sea turns to blood, 1/3 ships are destroyed, 1/3 of the Sea Creatures die. The Trees and Grasses are burned, the Demons in the 1st Woe maim and hurt mankind, the 2nd Woe is a 200 Million Angelic Army that kills 1.5 Billion people !! Its all God's Wrath.