The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[Diaste]

On 8/12/2018 at 9:12 AM, iamlamad said:

Until you understand what I am about to write, you will never be correct on Revelation or end times doctrine.

There was a church in the wilderness: Moses was the spokesman. Prophecies were made of a coming Messiah.

Finally the Messiah came and another church came about: Peter was the spokesman. He taught the gospel of the Kingdom. he taught that if they would believe in Jesus as their Messiah they would be saved. This church came out of the church in the wilderness. But this church died out. Before it did, however:

Paul came with new revelation and a MYSTERY church came about. It did NOT come from the previous churches, but was NEW and a mystery. It was Christ in the Gentiles. It was the Body of Christ on earth. Paul was the spokesman. He taught that Gentiles could be saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.  It was a new age: the age of Grace. Paul taught that when the age of Grace would end - when the fullness of the Gentile would come in, THEN time would revert right back to Jewish time and it would be the time of the 70th week of Daniel.

There are end time prophecies related to both the Jewish church of which Peter was the spokesman, and there are other prophecies that relate to the Gentile church and the age of Grace. Confuse these two and the result is a mixed up mess of untruth.

You are mixing up the prophecies for the Jewish church with the prophecies of the Gentile church. it is no wonder then that the result is confusion. For the end of the Gentile church of which we are a part, we MUST go only to the Pauline Epistles. Period and end of story. the exception would be the book of Revelation which covers mostly the Jewish church, but a tiny bit for the Gentile church.

For those that know these truths, they know they will NEVER SEE the Beast. Only those left behind in Paul's rapture will see the beast. I will not be contacting you for any of the listed reasons. I will be in heaven.

So many wish dispensationalism is truth. But it's not. It's a need for the heart of man to segregate, God does not segregate except for those who believe and those who do not.

It's not the Jews and the church, it's all one body. No man comes to the Father but by Jesus. No man. Ever. In all history. Job and Noah knew Jesus. Abraham knew Jesus. Moses. Issac. Jacob. Joseph. All of them and more. It's always been faith and salvation through Grace, from the beginning even to the end. "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." - Genesis 6:8 

There has only ever been two groups in the eyes of the Most High God, His children and everyone else. The believer and the unbeliever. Saved and unsaved. 

You'll see.

I hope you are not surprised when it all begins to end.

[Steve Conley]

On 8/12/2018 at 11:12 AM, iamlamad said:

Until you understand what I am about to write, you will never be correct on Revelation or end times doctrine.

There was a church in the wilderness: Moses was the spokesman. Prophecies were made of a coming Messiah.

Finally the Messiah came and another church came about: Peter was the spokesman. He taught the gospel of the Kingdom. he taught that if they would believe in Jesus as their Messiah they would be saved. This church came out of the church in the wilderness. But this church died out. Before it did, however:

Paul came with new revelation and a MYSTERY church came about. It did NOT come from the previous churches, but was NEW and a mystery. It was Christ in the Gentiles. It was the Body of Christ on earth. Paul was the spokesman. He taught that Gentiles could be saved by believing in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.  It was a new age: the age of Grace. Paul taught that when the age of Grace would end - when the fullness of the Gentile would come in, THEN time would revert right back to Jewish time and it would be the time of the 70th week of Daniel.

There are end time prophecies related to both the Jewish church of which Peter was the spokesman, and there are other prophecies that relate to the Gentile church and the age of Grace. Confuse these two and the result is a mixed up mess of untruth.

You are mixing up the prophecies for the Jewish church with the prophecies of the Gentile church. it is no wonder then that the result is confusion. For the end of the Gentile church of which we are a part, we MUST go only to the Pauline Epistles. Period and end of story. the exception would be the book of Revelation which covers mostly the Jewish church, but a tiny bit for the Gentile church.

For those that know these truths, they know they will NEVER SEE the Beast. Only those left behind in Paul's rapture will see the beast. I will not be contacting you for any of the listed reasons. I will be in heaven.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Now you have the doctrine of "the three churches". When will it end!

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Isralites).
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye (Gentile believers) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22  In whom ye (Gentile believers) also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Eph 3:1  For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12  In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Eph 3:13  Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:14  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Iamlamad, Paul explains the mystery of the Jew and Gentile in one body (the church) very well.

Praise Jesus

Edited August 14, 2018 by Steve Conley

[iamlamad]

Just now, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (Gentiles), and to them that were nigh (Isralites).
Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19  Now therefore ye (Gentile believers) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22  In whom ye (Gentile believers) also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Eph 3:1  For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6  That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Eph 3:7  Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12  In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Eph 3:13  Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:14  For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15  Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16  That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20  Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21  Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Iamlamad, Paul explains the mystery of the Jew and Gentile in one body (the church) very well.

Praise Jesus

True, once IN CHRIST, both grafted into the same tree of ISRAEL. But today most of the church was GENTILE before being grafted in. 

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Romans 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

There are more, but need I go further? There are CHURCHES of the Gentiles.

When the rapture takes place, God's focus will go back to the Jews, and TIME will go back to Jewish time, to finish out THEIR 70th week. Until you get this truth, your end time doctrine will be messed up.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

So many wish dispensationalism is truth. But it's not. It's a need for the heart of man to segregate, God does not segregate except for those who believe and those who do not.

It's not the Jews and the church, it's all one body. No man comes to the Father but by Jesus. No man. Ever. In all history. Job and Noah knew Jesus. Abraham knew Jesus. Moses. Issac. Jacob. Joseph. All of them and more. It's always been faith and salvation through Grace, from the beginning even to the end. "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." - Genesis 6:8 

There has only ever been two groups in the eyes of the Most High God, His children and everyone else. The believer and the unbeliever. Saved and unsaved. 

You'll see.

I hope you are not surprised when it all begins to end.

Sorry, but your theory here does not agree with all scripture. 

Sorry, but there was no Jesus for the church in the wilderness. He came later to bring them out of the captivity of Abraham's bosom and into heaven.

In fact, end times scriptures point to THREE groups: the church, the descendants of Jacob, and the nations. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Let me state this as simply as possible: Paul tells the Thessalonians that they need not fear that the persecution that they were facing is the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) that precedes the coming of Christ. He tells them that the day of Christ is not at hand (near in time). Paul then mentions two conditions which must be met before the day of Christ can be near in time. He says the day of Christ which is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him shall not come until the apostasia (falling away or departure from the faith that Jesus said would take place ["many shall be offended" Matt 24:9-10] in association with the unprecedented persecution and great deception of the "great tribulation") and the revelation of the man of sin which happens when he sits in the rebuilt temple and demands to be worshipped as God initiating the unprecedented persecution of the elect (Matt 24:15).

No, Iamlamad, the man of sin has not been revealed yet. There presently is no temple for him in which to sit and shew himself to be God. Daniel tells us that this takes place in the midst of the week.

Praise Jesus

New International Version
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

New Living Translation
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.

English Standard Version
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Berean Study Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.

New American Standard Bible
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

International Standard Version
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.

NET Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not arrive until the rebellion comes and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

New Heart English Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. [That day cannot come unless] a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.

New American Standard 1977
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

Darby Bible Translation
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
 

Other texts use "be revealed" that means the same thing as "is revealed." Paul goes on to tell us what the man of sin will do AFTER he "is" revealed, proving that in 3B he 'IS" meaning that some time before he WAS revealed.

How can you hope to know the intent of the Author when you cannot get one simple question correct?

Of course Paul means that this event has not yet occurred, but in Paul's argument he gets revealed in 3A and in 3B IS revealed. And following "is revealed" Paul tells us what he will do after he is revealed.

In Paul's argument then, something in verse 3A gets this man of sin set free to be revealed. Paul explains this well in verses 6-8. The restrainer must be "taken out of the way." If then in 3B he IS revealed, then in 3A the restrainer HAS BEEN "taken out of the way."  This is simple logic that cannot be faulted if words mean anything.

[Steve Conley]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

True, once IN CHRIST, both grafted into the same tree of ISRAEL. But today most of the church was GENTILE before being grafted in. 

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Romans 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

There are more, but need I go further? There are CHURCHES of the Gentiles.

When the rapture takes place, God's focus will go back to the Jews, and TIME will go back to Jewish time, to finish out THEIR 70th week. Until you get this truth, your end time doctrine will be messed up.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

So have you abandoned your misguided "three churches" doctrine?

Also, you should recognize that God has been working with the Jews from the days of the apostles. As you have quoted Paul above, He is presently provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles. We, (the Gentiles) having been graffed in among the believing Israelites (branches not broken off through unbelief) are now partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree. God has always been working with the Israelites. There has always been a believing remnant according to the election of grace.

God was working with the nation when judgement fell upon them in 70 AD, He was working with them when they returned to the land and were again recognized as a nation. It is a foolish idea from the father of lies that God has cast away the Jews or that He is not working among them today. The difference today between them and their future state is due to their blindness and unbelief. That will be remedied when the fulness of the Gentiles is come in and Christ reveals Himself in the clouds for all the world to see.

The truth is near, you are stumbling all around it. As they say, "if it were a snake it would have bitten you."

Give all glory to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I'm sorry Iamlamad, but I have to laugh at your attempts to take two rather self-explanatory statements of Paul and wrest them to teach something altogether different. It is just this type of foolishness that has led to so many sects, teaching all kinds of strange doctrines, among those who call themselves Christians.

The doctrine of the "partial rest". Really?

Or, the doctrine of "the apostasia means the rapture". You got to be kidding! There isn't a single example in all of Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used meaning a physical departure. In every known use of the word in the 6 centuries of Koine Greek, it always referred to a religious departure (falling away) or a political departure. There is no evidence that it was ever even once used to indicate a physical departure. However, you and many other pretribulationists are so desperate to find a pre-trib rapture in the Scriptures that you will seemingly stoop to any level to convince others that you are correct.

May the Lord have mercy and open the eyes of His people to recognize wresting of the Scriptures like this.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

 

 

I guess you know, there is "on the other hand" here. Posttribbers have to wrestle with certain scriptures also. And prewrathers have to rearrange most of the book of Revelation to make their theory fit. 

Make no mistake here: there are scripture YOU must twist to make your doctrine work.  

You imagine Paul cannot use a compound word in the way it was meant to work?  Have you considered out English word, "paradigm?"  Para means side by side, such as in parallel, and the "digm" means comparison. Could I now then use this word and say that Paul gives us a perfect paradigm, in 1 thes. 5, where he shows us that two different groups of people get two different results?  Yet, the use of this word has shifted into something OTHER than a comparison between two.  Its use has switched from a noun to an adjective. 

You imagine Paul could not have meant a departing [of the church] even after I showed you that the meaning of each of the compound words fits PERFECTLY with the catching away of the saints.  Like I said, lets just ASK Paul when we see him. 

If you wish to make this a departing from the faith or a falling away, then you are faced with another dilemma. Because of the rest of this passage, you are faced with this: the falling away has to be the one restraining "taken out of the way." Why? Because in Paul's argument, in 3B the man of sin IS [meaning has been) revealed. 

The question then becomes, who really is twisting the true meaning of this passage?

Question: in your theory, is the rapture a part of the Day of the Lord? Or does the rapture happen outside of the Day of the Lord?

[iamlamad]

Just now, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

So have you abandoned your misguided "three churches" doctrine?

Also, you should recognize that God has been working with the Jews from the days of the apostles. As you have quoted Paul above, He is presently provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles. We, (the Gentiles) having been graffed in among the believing Israelites (branches not broken off through unbelief) are now partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree. God has always been working with the Israelites. There has always been a believing remnant according to the election of grace.

God was working with the nation when judgement fell upon them in 70 AD, He was working with them when they returned to the land and were again recognized as a nation. It is a foolish idea from the father of lies that God has cast away the Jews or that He is not working among them today. The difference today between them and their future state is due to their blindness and unbelief. That will be remedied when the fulness of the Gentiles is come in and Christ reveals Himself in the clouds for all the world to see.

The truth is near, you are stumbling all around it. As they say, "if it were a snake it would have bitten you."

Give all glory to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Of course I have not abandoned the three groups of people that the end times scriptures are pointed to: there is the church, there is the nations (Gentile nations) and there are the Jews and Hebrews. It is not me that is stumbling. God is not a one track mind kind of God. I have never said that.  However, today God's FOCUS is on the church. When the church is taken out of the way, pretrib, then God's FOCUS will be on those from who the 70 weeks was created. 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

So many wish dispensationalism is truth. But it's not. It's a need for the heart of man to segregate, God does not segregate except for those who believe and those who do not.

It's not the Jews and the church, it's all one body. No man comes to the Father but by Jesus. No man. Ever. In all history. Job and Noah knew Jesus. Abraham knew Jesus. Moses. Issac. Jacob. Joseph. All of them and more. It's always been faith and salvation through Grace, from the beginning even to the end. "Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." - Genesis 6:8 

There has only ever been two groups in the eyes of the Most High God, His children and everyone else. The believer and the unbeliever. Saved and unsaved. 

You'll see.

I hope you are not surprised when it all begins to end.

True.  There may be prophecies still to be fulfilled concerning Israel but the song remains the same, justification through faith.

[Steve Conley]

10 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Of course I have not abandoned the three groups of people that the end times scriptures are pointed to: there is the church, there is the nations (Gentile nations) and there are the Jews and Hebrews. It is not me that is stumbling. God is not a one track mind kind of God. I have never said that.  However, today God's FOCUS is on the church. When the church is taken out of the way, pretrib, then God's FOCUS will be on those from who the 70 weeks was created. 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Iamlamad, we can all quote Paul when he says,"Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God". You know very well that is not what I was referring to. I was referring to your doctrine of "the three churches" as quoted below.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

There was a church in the wilderness: Moses was the spokesman. Prophecies were made of a coming Messiah.

Finally the Messiah came and another church came about: Peter was the spokesman. He taught the gospel of the Kingdom. he taught that if they would believe in Jesus as their Messiah they would be saved. This church came out of the church in the wilderness. But this church died out. Before it did, however:

Paul came with new revelation and a MYSTERY church came about. It did NOT come from the previous churches, but was NEW and a mystery.

This is just one of a multitude of aberrant teachings that you promote.

Praise Jesus