The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[Michael37]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

In any case the symbols used illustrate future events will morph into physical reality, we just don't see it very clearly, yet.

Yes. That's what I find. Iron sharpens iron. Although the book of Revelation was written in the 1st century AD, people like you and I are drawn to its message and blessed by its truth. 

11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

And the wise will easily discern the difference as the comparisons manifest in reality. Or did you think these comparisons are simply literary devices existing only in print?

 Aha. Very good point about discerning the difference as comparisons manifest in reality, otherwise its just an interesting exercise in altered consciousness. Likewise a very perceptive question about the literary devices existing only in print because unregenerate academics seize on various textual characteristics in the "scriptures" of every religious persuasion to arrive at the erroneous conclusion in respect of our Bible, that mankind generates them to fulfill a universal religious need. Knowing this pitfall I take care to worship God through His chosen method of communicating His plan to us in written form, and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit to see it unfolding. 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

unregenerate academics seize on various textual characteristics in the "scriptures" of every religious persuasion to arrive at the erroneous conclusion in respect of our Bible, that mankind generates them to fulfill a universal religious need. 

Yes. They are so used to creating evidence to fit their conclusion they believe everyone does the same, a 'bottom up' method instead of 'top down'. Evidence leads to a conclusion, not conclusions lead to evidence. Funny they don't realize this actually condemns the methods employed on their part while at the same time glorifying God Almighty.

[iamlamad]

On 8/18/2018 at 6:14 AM, Diaste said:

Ah, so instead of facts you appeal to the consensus. Weak.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him," 2 Thess 2:1. Deny all you like, Paul said it, not me. Paul goes on to say the day, the moment the Lord comes and the moment of the gathering, will not happen except the rebellion and the revealing happen first. 

It's odd that you think the rebellion is an event like kicking a field goal. A rebellion is always a happening of the course of time. Rebellion begins as a seed in the mind and like a virus spreads to other minds; only noticed once the pathogen has infected large enough numbers. Only then, suddenly, does the population storm the palace. This 'falling away' will occur over time and the culmination will be the revealing of the beast, after he has enticed millions of former believers to follow him.

So? This proves...what? That's it's impossible for the gathering to occur at this time? You do realize the Day of the Lord is not just one single 24 hour period? It begins on a day but ultimately reaches out a thousands years and to eternity. The gathering can happen in a single moment, the tick of a clock, in the span of mere thought. So what if the Day of the Lord is what you say it is? How does that negate a gathering that occurs in the blink of an eye at the commencement of at least many months of the Day of the Lord?

It is a 'departing', from a belief system. And no, the holding back is the falling away of the people of God to the camp of the beast and the declaration of the beast that he is god, that must occur before the gathering and the coming of our Lord.

 

You are doing it again! "Paul goes on to say the day, the moment the Lord comes and the moment of the gathering,"

You are right, when He comes, as shown in 1 Thes. 4, the gathering takes place. But that is NOT "THE DAY" Paul is making reference to! The rapture comes first, then THE DAY (that dark day of desctruction) comes - as if the rapture triggers the day. In fact, it does. What does the Old Testament say about THE DAY?  Someone wrote "why do you desire the day of the Lord? It is going to be a dark day of destruction!" Does that sound like the day of the rapture? It does not to me! One is darkness, one is light.  The Day of the Lord is when God systematically begins to destroy the earth and kill the sinners on the earth. 

If indeed Paul meant a falling away (from what Paul did not specify) you have said it comes one at a time. How then can you equate one at a time with "taken out of the way?" Do you imagine these are saying the same thing? Kicking the football goal is far more like the rapture: instantaneous! In my mind, rapture fits far closer to "taken out of the way" than people falling away from the truth. 

Next, for every one that falls away from the truth, if indeed some do, more come to the truth! The church in general has been growing steadily from its inception. There are more believers now then ever before.

The fact is, hidden in the word "apostasia" the entity doing the restraining being "taken out of the way."  That is fact whether you believe it or not.

Your timing is far far off: this gathering of Paul will take place before the Beast is recognized. After all, it comes pretrib. Like it or lump it, it is truth. I'm out of time.

 

[Diaste]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are doing it again! "Paul goes on to say the day, the moment the Lord comes and the moment of the gathering,"

 

And I'm likely to keep it up so might as well get used to it.

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are right, when He comes, as shown in 1 Thes. 4, the gathering takes place. But that is NOT "THE DAY" Paul is making reference to! The rapture comes first, then THE DAY (that dark day of desctruction) comes - as if the rapture triggers the day. In fact, it does. What does the Old Testament say about THE DAY?  Someone wrote "why do you desire the day of the Lord? It is going to be a dark day of destruction!" Does that sound like the day of the rapture? It does not to me! One is darkness, one is light.  The Day of the Lord is when God systematically begins to destroy the earth and kill the sinners on the earth. 

Is it that you cannot read, you're ignoring the text, or you don't understand? 

2 Thess 2;

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him"

Both events immutably linked as occurring together in time/space. That day can only be the day from verse 1. You really believe Paul is referring to some other distant day when he began with context of the 2nd coming/gathering as the thesis? 

 

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

If indeed Paul meant a falling away (from what Paul did not specify) you have said it comes one at a time. How then can you equate one at a time with "taken out of the way?" Do you imagine these are saying the same thing? Kicking the football goal is far more like the rapture: instantaneous! In my mind, rapture fits far closer to "taken out of the way" than people falling away from the truth. 

Huh? 

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The fact is, hidden in the word "apostasia" the entity doing the restraining being "taken out of the way."  That is fact whether you believe it or not.

From Latin apostasia, from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasía, “defection, revolt”).

 

Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

HELPS Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575/apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Strong's Concordance

apostasion: a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce

Original Word: ἀποστάσιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: apostasion
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas'-ee-on)
Short Definition: repudiation, divorce
Definition: repudiation, divorce; met: bill of divorce.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from aphistémi

Strong's Concordance

aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from

Original Word: ἀφίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I lead away, seduce, depart, abstain from
Definition: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.

Strong's Concordance

apo: from, away from

Original Word: ἀπό
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: apo
Phonetic Spelling: (apo')
Short Definition: from, away from
Definition: from, away from.

Strong's Concordance

histémi: to make to stand, to stand

Original Word: ἵστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: histémi
Phonetic Spelling: (his'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I cause to stand, stand
Definition: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint; mid: I place myself, stand, (b) I set in balance, weigh; intrans: (c) I stand, stand by, stand still; met: I stand ready, stand firm, am steadfast.

Nothing in the above definitions speaks to the enormous lie of the 'pretrib rapture'. It's all about withdrawing from the Lord in open revolt or a bitter divorce, by individual choice.

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Your timing is far far off: this gathering of Paul will take place before the Beast is recognized. After all, it comes pretrib. Like it or lump it, it is truth. I'm out of time.

The beast is only officially revealed at the midpoint to the temporal nation of Israel, Spiritual Israel will see him well before this. And, since you seem to think the beast can only be known/seen at the midpoint A of D, then you may be in danger of falling into it's seduction.

 

 

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him"

Both events immutably linked as occurring together in time/space. That day can only be the day from verse 1. You really believe Paul is referring to some other distant day when he began with context of the 2nd coming/gathering as the thesis? 

There are actually three things that are linked together.

1. the world saying peace and safety

2. the falling away.

3. the act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

Then the Day of the Lord (the beginning years) begins.

 

For number 1 condition, Christians are not supposed to be in darkness at that time of what is going on regarding the times.     The Day of Lord comes upon them saying peace and safety, suddenly and unexpectedly... and they shall not escape.    But, Paul says..

1Thessalonians5

9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [this is the rapture/resurrection], we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

condition 2, the falling away, that is what is going on during the time when the world is saying peace and safety.

condition 3, the going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God-- is the actual "like a thief in night" event that will trigger the Day of the Lord beginning.

 

 

[Salty]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are doing it again! "Paul goes on to say the day, the moment the Lord comes and the moment of the gathering,"

You are right, when He comes, as shown in 1 Thes. 4, the gathering takes place. But that is NOT "THE DAY" Paul is making reference to! The rapture comes first, then THE DAY (that dark day of desctruction) comes - as if the rapture triggers the day. In fact, it does. What does the Old Testament say about THE DAY?  Someone wrote "why do you desire the day of the Lord? It is going to be a dark day of destruction!" Does that sound like the day of the rapture? It does not to me! One is darkness, one is light.  The Day of the Lord is when God systematically begins to destroy the earth and kill the sinners on the earth. 

 

Revelation 11 shows God's two witnesses being resurrected within the same hour of the sounding of the 7th trumpet, and then it is said all the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of The Father and His Son. That suggests the rapture at that same time, since the so-called rapture occurs the same time as the resurrection per 1 Thess.4.

What obviously has you confused are men's doctrines of a Pre-trib Rapture. They wrongly teach the "day of the Lord" begins PRIOR to the time of 'great tribulation' Jesus taught. And they wrongly teach the Church is raptured PRIOR to that tribulation.

Per Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12, when the "day of the Lord" comes, it will BURN MAN'S WORKS off this earth. It would be impossible for the tribulation to continue through that. That 'day' will END this present world, including Antichrist's reign, and the destruction of the Gog/Magog armies.

In the Book of Isaiah, God uses some neat ideas about complete destruction on that day. In one example He uses a bottle full of liquid being immediately turned upside down with its contents splashing out. In another, He compares a hungry man dreaming of a feast set before him, and before he can taste of it he wakes up, and finds himself still hungry.

 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

And I'm likely to keep it up so might as well get used to it.

Is it that you cannot read, you're ignoring the text, or you don't understand? 

2 Thess 2;

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him"

Both events immutably linked as occurring together in time/space. That day can only be the day from verse 1. You really believe Paul is referring to some other distant day when he began with context of the 2nd coming/gathering as the thesis? 

 

Huh? 

From Latin apostasia, from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasía, “defection, revolt”).

 

Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

HELPS Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575/apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Strong's Concordance

apostasion: a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce

Original Word: ἀποστάσιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: apostasion
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas'-ee-on)
Short Definition: repudiation, divorce
Definition: repudiation, divorce; met: bill of divorce.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from aphistémi

Strong's Concordance

aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from

Original Word: ἀφίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-is'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I lead away, seduce, depart, abstain from
Definition: I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from.

Strong's Concordance

apo: from, away from

Original Word: ἀπό
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: apo
Phonetic Spelling: (apo')
Short Definition: from, away from
Definition: from, away from.

Strong's Concordance

histémi: to make to stand, to stand

Original Word: ἵστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: histémi
Phonetic Spelling: (his'-tay-mee)
Short Definition: I cause to stand, stand
Definition: trans: (a) I make to stand, place, set up, establish, appoint; mid: I place myself, stand, (b) I set in balance, weigh; intrans: (c) I stand, stand by, stand still; met: I stand ready, stand firm, am steadfast.

Nothing in the above definitions speaks to the enormous lie of the 'pretrib rapture'. It's all about withdrawing from the Lord in open revolt or a bitter divorce, by individual choice.

The beast is only officially revealed at the midpoint to the temporal nation of Israel, Spiritual Israel will see him well before this. And, since you seem to think the beast can only be known/seen at the midpoint A of D, then you may be in danger of falling into it's seduction.

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him"

How strange: you read "THE DAY" in this sentence - yet it is not there.

Isaiah 13:9  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

This is one of several Old Testament verses in THE DAY. Do you see anything like the rapture event in this? I don't! 

That day can only be the day from verse 1.  WHY? You are making an assumption that millions of people just won't make. Why does it have to the talking about the same thing? Were they scared of the rapture? Did you not read that they were very upset thinking THE DAY had come? If THE DAY equals the rapture they should have been shouting for the rapture should come at any second! But they were very upset. Why? Because Paul had taught them in person that the rapture would come BEFORE the Day. They thought they were IN the day and had missed the rapture. 

HOw many times am I going to have to show you this from Strongs? You are doing well, but just not going far enough:

 

APO:  G575:

 

of separation

1. of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...

2. of separation of a part from the whole

   1. where of a whole some part is taken

I did not make this up! I copied it straight from Strongs via Blueletter Bible. 

Whether you like it or not, Apostasia CAN MEAN a spatial departing where of a whole, some part is taken away.

Again whether you believe it or not, THE CHURCH, the Bride of Christ will not BE HERE to see the Beast. If you wish to stay behind, I believe God will see to it. 

Huh?  Does "gone from the midst" or "taken out of the way" seem to you to be a one by one event, over a long period of time? That does not make sense: in Paul's argument it must be a SIGNIFICANT and easily recognizable event. A one by one falling away just does not fit the text.  However, a sudden departing of the Bride of Christ to heaven sure would fit.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Salty said:

Revelation 11 shows God's two witnesses being resurrected within the same hour of the sounding of the 7th trumpet, and then it is said all the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of The Father and His Son. That suggests the rapture at that same time, since the so-called rapture occurs the same time as the resurrection per 1 Thess.4.

What obviously has you confused are men's doctrines of a Pre-trib Rapture. They wrongly teach the "day of the Lord" begins PRIOR to the time of 'great tribulation' Jesus taught. And they wrongly teach the Church is raptured PRIOR to that tribulation.

Per Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10-12, when the "day of the Lord" comes, it will BURN MAN'S WORKS off this earth. It would be impossible for the tribulation to continue through that. That 'day' will END this present world, including Antichrist's reign, and the destruction of the Gog/Magog armies.

In the Book of Isaiah, God uses some neat ideas about complete destruction on that day. In one example He uses a bottle full of liquid being immediately turned upside down with its contents splashing out. In another, He compares a hungry man dreaming of a feast set before him, and before he can taste of it he wakes up, and finds himself still hungry.

You think that, but it is absolutely not truth. You have failed to recognize that Rev. 11:4-13 are written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology. The truth is, the two witnesses SHOW UP suddenly about 3 1/2 DAYS before the midpoint, testify for 1260 days - taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. They lay dead those 3.5 days, then are raised up at the 7th vial earthquake. Their earthquake is the 7th vial earthquake. 

Just to set the record straight, JOHN HIMSELF, backed by the Holy Spirit, shows us the start of "the DAY"  at the 6th seal, before the 7th seal begins the 70th week of Daniel.  This is not "men's doctrine," this is Holy Ghost doctrine.  

Again, Paul shows us a pretrib rapture, backed by the Holy Spirit. I suggest to deposit your theories into file 13. You may find yourself going against the Holy Spirit. That would not be wise. Did you not notice that Paul also taught that THE DAY follows hard after the rapture? Did you not notice that the rapture comes a moment before the Wrath of God begins, and said wrath begins at the 6th seal, BEFORE the trib? 

Therefore, if you wish to be left behind - if you are that determined to see the man of sin turned Beast - I believe God will give you your wish. For the rest of the body of Christ, they choose to go out on the first load.  Those left behind will become a part of the "remnant" of Rev. 12. Those that choose to escape all these things will be shouting up and down the golden streets of heaven, while those left behind  are trying to find a drink of water, while also trying to avoid losing their  head. 

 

[iamlamad]

On 8/18/2018 at 5:41 AM, Diaste said:

Good sense or not it certainly isn't working out. 

But you'll see. There will be no pretrib 'rapture'.

The beast will rise to power through the permission of the Lord under the auspices of Satan, with the FP as shameless promoter; and many will fall away from our Father's love.

After this the beast will be revealed for what he truly is; evil incarnate.

Only then can the Lord come and the gathering occur.

Well, I doubt if God will allow those in heaven to "check in" on those left behind, else I would agree right now to check in on you and see how your theory is working out: trying to find water while trying to avoid losing your head. Good luck on that! 

[iamlamad]

On 8/17/2018 at 11:19 PM, Michael37 said:

Regarding "Incremental Apostasia", iamlamad.  This is the increasing movement away from the Biblical Christian Faith as delivered by Christ and the Apostles and Gospel and NT writers.

The current increment of apostasy has professing christians in same-sex relationships with the blessing of their denominations and congregations. Certain denominations ordain gay or lesbian clergy to lead congregations of deluded but professing christians. Paul simply wrote of a falling away that culminates in revelatory news of the man of sin/son of perdition. This is where the current increments of apostasia are leading, nothing fanciful, nothing that genuine Christians will deceived by. The mystery of iniquity is just as much at work now as in Paul's day. Until the last person destined to be saved is saved the Lord's return will be delayed.

I disagree. Around the world, when one "falls away" two or three are born again. The church is GROWING world wide, not losing. Soon the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in and we will hear a loud trumpet blast! And just as Paul said, it will come FIRST before the man of sin is revealed.