The context of 1 Thess 5:1

[iamlamad]

30 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

If nothing were at stake, this point wouldn't even be an issue.  We'd all agree that apostasia means apostasy, or a departure from the faith.  The only reason its an issue is because the validity of the pretrib rapture is at stake.  In 2 Thessalonians 2, Paul is essentially saying won't happen untilThe rapture ____________ happens first.  Insert "the rapture" and then read the sentence.  Then insert "the apostasy" and read it again.  One of them doesn't make sense.  Why is that so hard to see?  Because admitting the obvious deals a serious blow to the pretrib narrative and some people just prefer what they want to be true over the truth, regardless of how much tap dancing and word games it takes to get there.

However, in the end, wisdom is justified by her deeds, not her eschatology.

Your preconceptions are showing!  It should be: The DAY won't happen until____________ happens first.

In your preconceived notion, when you read THE DAY you automatically think rapture. Why is that when in the Old Testament we read that the DAY will be a dark day of destruction where God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. I don't get "rapture" from any of the Old Testament verses on THE DAY.

Why did they imagine THE DAY had come? Were they in heaven? OF COURSE NOT! They imagined it was THE DAY because they were under severe persecution and then they read a forged letter telling them they were in THE DAY. For sure that letter did not tell them they had just been raptured! For the entire bible, the idea of THE DAY is that it is a BAD day, not a good day! It will be destruction and wrath upon sinners. How in the world, then, do you imagine rapture when you read THE DAY?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, douggg said:

I am not understanding your logic.     All of the seals have been opened by Jesus already, back when John was given Revelation - so we know what is in the book.

The fulfillment of what is in the book is still forthcoming.

 

No, my friend, all the seals have not been opened! ONLY IN THE VISION have they all been opened. The first five were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. It is not TIME for the 6th seal yet, so it is not opened. However, because it was a vision, God showed John future events: what WILL happen when the 6th seal has been opened. 

Yes, agreed. We DO know what is in the book - because God showed John in a vision. But we also know that most of this vision is still FUTURE. We know that no trumpet judgment has been sounded yet. And we also know that the 6th seal is still future. 

Some of us know that the 5th seal was opened for the martyrs of the church age and is still ONGOING: God is waiting for the full number of church age martyrs.

[douggg]

57 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

4 hours ago, douggg said:

 

No, my friend, all the seals have not been opened! ONLY IN THE VISION have they all been opened.

But it is written down in the text that Jesus opened the seals.     John recorded that Jesus has opened the seals.



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The first five were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

I am not getting where are you reading that in the text?

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Yes, agreed. We DO know what is in the book - because God showed John in a vision.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

I would not call that a vision.   I would call it an out-of-body experience.

 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, douggg said:

Where are you seeing in the text of Revelation the covenant confirmed with many - beginning in the 7th seal?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 made a requirement to all future leaders of Israel to essentially confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant by making a speech to the nation of Israel that God gave them the land of Israel as theirs forever, on the feast of tabernacles.    On a seven year cycle.

The feast of tabernacles is when the Jews re-enact their coming out of Egypt and living in little shacks awaiting to go into the promised land.      

The requirement is that the confirmation" be done from the place of God's choosing.   Which I have talked to Jews about, and they say that place is the temple mount. 

What it will be is a big speech by the Antichrist that God gave the land of Israel as theirs forever.   Which will be very significant on the heels of Gog/Magog with the invaders having attempted to take the land of Israel from the Jews.

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Not in direct words.    "Anti" is a prefix meaning "instead of" and "against"

The "Christ" concept is God's promised great King of Israel, to lead Israel and the world into the messianic age of peace and safety.

Jesus is the Christ, the one who came in the name of the Lord.    In these verses, we find the association of Christ with being the King of Israel, and Jesus being the rightful King of Israel messiah.

John 5: 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

John 12:12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

 

Jerusalem and the Jews, that generation, rejected Jesus to be their King of Israel, chosen by God to be their King.     The Anti-christ is the another they will embrace as their King of Israel - until he betrays them and the covenant of God being their God.       Acting in the role as their perceived messiah, anointed the King of israel - as that is how a person becomes the King of Israel - by the false prophet, he will make the big speech from the temple mount, following Gog/Magog, to begin the 7 years 70th week.

Everything in Revelation 6-19 has to be completed within the 7 years - with no going beyond - because there are only 70 weeks (of years) determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem.       The 1335 days and the 1290 days tied to the abomination of desolation has to fit within the 7 years.

When the person commits the transgression of desolation act in 2Thessalonians2:4, that will end his time of the Jews thinking he is their messiah, and his time in the role of being the Antichrist.       He then shortly goes into the role of being the beast, the 8th King of the Roman Empire.

Everything in Revelation 6-19 has to be completed within the 7 years - with no going beyond - because there are only 70 weeks (of years) determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem.       The 1335 days and the 1290 days tied to the abomination of desolation has to fit within the 7 years.

I disagree. The very first thing God sent me to find was the midpoint of the week, "clearly marked" as He said to me. Then I was to find the ENTIRE 70th week clearly marked. And when He said that, I knew how: God would use the SAME MARKER for the beginning and end. The 70th week is marked by 7's. Don't doubt me on this!  The 7th seal starts the week, and the 7th vial ends the week, but the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. That is the 70th week of Daniel clearly delineated. 

When I knew this, then I knew there MUST BE clues in the text to show that the seals were not IN the 70th week. And then I discovered that chapters 4 & 5 show us the TIMING of the first seals: 32 AD or the time Jesus ascended. Then I discovered that the first hint of a long wait was at the 5th seal. The church has been between the 5th and 6th seal for almost 2000 years now. 

John did not make it plain where we are now in his book, but we can discover it will study.

If what you wrote here was truth, then Paul was wrong that the Beast would be revealed at the abomination. All would know as soon as he was "confirmed" as their king. I just don't think it will be done that way. I don't think very many will discover him until the midpoint of the week. However, Daniel tells us he will take down three "kings" so it is possible some will recognize him from that.  Some may recognize him when he will enter Jerusalem just before the midpoint (Rev. 11:1-2) with his Gentile armies.

 

I also disagree on the 1290 and the 1335. These two counts extend beyond the week. They certainly don't have to be a part of the week. 

Edited August 21, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, douggg said:

But it is written down in the text that Jesus opened the seals.     John recorded that Jesus has opened the seals.



I am not getting where are you reading that in the text?

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

I would not call that a vision.   I would call it an out-of-body experience.

 

This was A VISION. Any good student of the bible should know a vision can be of the past, or the present, or the future, or all of the above mixed together.  We ALL know that all of this vision has not yet come to pass. Some of us know that some of it HAS come to pass. Yes, when He was called up to heaven, it WAS an out of body experience. But from that moment on he was VISIONS or just one vision with many parts. 

Revelation 9:17

And thus I saw the horses in the vision..

[douggg]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The 70th week is marked by 7's.

That's irrational, to use that system to say that the 70th week starts with the seventh seal.    To show the flaws in the system, there are 7 kings in Revelation 17, five have fallen, one is -- at the time of John, 1st century.    And the 70th week certainly did not start back then.

The seventieh week begins in Daniel 9 when the prince who shall come confirms the covenant with many for one week.

In Revelation, the seventieth week start with the rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, given a crown, anointed the King of Israel, illegitimate.

 

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If what you wrote here was truth, then Paul was wrong that the Beast would be revealed at the abomination. All would know as soon as he was "confirmed" as their king

I don't understand what you are trying to say "confirmed" as their king?     That's not the prophecy.   It is the covenant that is to be confirmed for 7 years.

 

Edited August 21, 2018 by douggg

[douggg]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

This was A VISION. Any good student of the bible should know a vision can be of the past, or the present, or the future, or all of the above mixed together.  We ALL know that all of this vision has not yet come to pass. Some of us know that some of it HAS come to pass. Yes, when He was called up to heaven, it WAS an out of body experience. But from that moment on he was VISIONS or just one vision with many parts. 

Revelation 9:17

And thus I saw the horses in the vision..

As John was in his out-of-body experience, and was in heaven, he was shown many things when he was in heaven, which he "viewed".    He was also told many things which he did not view directly.       There is only one place in Revelation the word vision is used... and it was pertaining to what he "viewed" - while he was out-of-body.    

[Last Daze]

59 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Your preconceptions are showing!  It should be: The DAY won't happen until____________ happens first.

In your preconceived notion, when you read THE DAY you automatically think rapture. Why is that when in the Old Testament we read that the DAY will be a dark day of destruction where God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. I don't get "rapture" from any of the Old Testament verses on THE DAY.

Why did they imagine THE DAY had come? Were they in heaven? OF COURSE NOT! They imagined it was THE DAY because they were under severe persecution and then they read a forged letter telling them they were in THE DAY. For sure that letter did not tell them they had just been raptured! For the entire bible, the idea of THE DAY is that it is a BAD day, not a good day! It will be destruction and wrath upon sinners. How in the world, then, do you imagine rapture when you read THE DAY?

Again, wisdom is justified by her deeds.  Be prepared to endure to the end and it'll be all right.

[iamlamad]

45 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Again, wisdom is justified by her deeds.  Be prepared to endure to the end and it'll be all right.

Au contraire!  I will be looking for Him and listening for a trumpet sound!

Heb. 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I will escape "all these things."  If you wish to experience "all these things," I believe God will allow it.

[Last Daze]

16 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I will escape "all these things."  If you wish to experience "all these things," I believe God will allow it.

Sorry, but it won't happen according to the will of man.  God has set the standard.  Not all of the tap-dancing and word games and posturing and wishful thinking will change what He has declared.

• But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:13
• You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Mark 13:13

He has told us ahead of time what to expect, so be vigilant and watch and remain faithful to the end.