Christians and drinking

[Still Alive]

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:32 AM, DWH2003 said:

 

 

Studying the Bible is a marvelous thing.  It is the mind of God revealed.  : )

 

I agree, that reading any message as it was intended by the author is vital to a proper understanding.

 

While I also agree that times change, people don't - I am concerned that you still place a modern assessment of preference into the Bible regarding alcohol when you say, "So, I know what most people in a culture that did not forbid intoxicating drink would consider 'good' wine."  Modern culture undoubtedly sees good wine as potent, alcoholic.  In Bible times this was not so, simply because in Bible lands no process was known for how to separate the alcohol and vinegar which both developed.  The stronger the alcohol (6% max naturally before it kills the yeast) the stronger the vinegar.  Not very tasty.  Just leave a glass of grape juice out for a day or 2, and you will quickly see for yourself.  (See the addendum below for actually historical references on what people actually considered good in those times.)

They did know how to preserve fresh juice, they boiled it down to a syrup, which could be restored by adding water for use.  Sweet, fresh juice was the best in this context. Not vinegar tasting alcohol.

 

Grape juice makes the heart glad, without any intoxication.  Your reference to Psalms does not demand alcohol.  A fresh tomato makes the heart glad too, much more than a bad tasting one.

 

 

Addendum regarding "good" wine in Bible times:

In the Roman world (NT times) the best wines were those whose alcoholic potency had been removed by boiling or filtration.  Pliny (ad 23-79) says that "wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been removed by the strainer"  Pliny, Natural History 23, 24 trans. W. H. S. Jones, The Loeb Clasical Library (Cambridge, Massacusetts, 1961).

Similarly, Plutarch (AD 46-120) points out that wine is "much more pleasant to drink" when it "neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions" because its strength has been removed through frequent filtering.  (Plutarch, Symposiac 8, 7. )

 

Referring to some of the same ancient authors, Barnes says: "Pliny, Plutarch and Horace describe wine as good, or mention that as the best wine which was harmless or innocent—poculis vini innocentis. The most useful wine—utilissimum vinum—was that which had little strength; and the most wholesome wine—saluberrimum vinum—was that which had not been adulterated by ‘the addition of anything to the must or juice.’ Pliny expressly says that a ‘good wine’ was one that was destitute of spirit. Lib iv. c.13. It should not be assumed, therefore, that the ‘good wine’ was stronger than the other. It is rather to be presumed that it was milder. That would be the best wine certainly. The wine referred to here was doubtless such as was commonly drunk in Palestine. That was the pure juice of the grape. It was not brandied wine; nor drugged wine; nor wine compounded of various substances such as we drink in this land. The common wine drunk in Palestine was that which was the simple juice of the grape." (Albert Barnes (n. 11), p. 197.)

The wine Christ made was of high quality, not because of its alcohol content, but because, as Henry Morris explains, it was "new wine, freshly created! It was not old, decayed wine, as it would have to be if it were intoxicating. There was no time for the fermentation process to break down the structure of its energy-giving sugars into disintegrative alcohols. It thus was a fitting representation of His glory and was appropriate to serve as the very first of His great miracles (John 2:11)." (Henry M. Morris, The Bible Has the Answer (Nutley, New Jersey, 1971), p. 163.)

 Albert Barnes warns on John 2:10 not to "be deceived by the phrase ‘good wine.’" The reason, he explains, is that "We use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength, and its power to intoxicate. But no such sense is to be attached to the word here." (Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament, Luke-John (London, 1875), vol. 2, p. 197.

It's a huge subject. I link to this not because it's the most in-depth, but because it shows such an array of opinions, discussions on what wine was back then, and hints at what the "best" wine was. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1b2jhl/what_did_wine_and_beer_taste_like_in_ancient/

I do strongly believe people get wrapped around the axle on this issue. Suffice it to say I don't believe in over-indulgence of food or drink. I even have a cigar every six months or so. Just had lobster last night for the first time in 8 years. I forgot how good it is. I have a half of a maple donut every Sunday at church. A whole donut is more than I need.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Still Alive

[DWH2003]

21 hours ago, Still Alive said:

But I've not seen a single scripture that tells us it is not. And plenty have been offered to show that it is fine and to be enjoyed, but not to get drunk. Enjoy candy bars and donuts, but don't become a glutton. etc.

I think this one is relevant:

Colossians 2:20-22

If you have died with Christ to the spiritual forces of the world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its regulations: "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch? - These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings

Eph 5:18  An inceptive verb identifies that we are not to begin the process of drinking wine that leads to riot. Being filled with the Spirit, means there will be no room for "wine".

1 Peter 4:3  sipping, being half drunk and being flat out drunk are all identified as carnal & sinful.

1 Peter 4:7 says to be "sober" which literally means to be free from the influence of intoxicants.

 

Col 2:20-22 shows that we are not under the Old Testament which are a shadow (v. 16-17) or man's inventions (v. 18-19) which is vanity.  This passage does not say to bypass what God has revealed in the NT.

 

John 7:17 If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself. 

Phil 1:9 and this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and all discernment; 10 so that ye may approve the things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and void of offence unto the day of Christ; 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are through Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

May God bless you in your studies.

Edited July 26, 2018 by DWH2003

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, DWH2003 said:

Eph 5:18  An inceptive verb identifies that we are not to begin the process of drinking wine that leads to riot. Being filled with the Spirit, means there will be no room for "wine".

1 Peter 4:3  sipping, being half drunk and being flat out drunk are all identified as carnal & sinful.

1 Peter 4:7 says to be "sober" which literally means to be free from the influence of intoxicants.

 

Col 2:20-22 shows that we are not under the Old Testament which are a shadow (v. 16-17) or man's inventions (v. 18-19) which is vanity.  This passage does not say to bypass what God has revealed in the NT.

 

John 7:17 If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself. 

Phil 1:9 and this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and all discernment; 10 so that ye may approve the things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and void of offence unto the day of Christ; 11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are through Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

May God bless you in your studies.

I have a full plate today. I just took one at random, and it's not about alcohol. It's about being drunk on alcohol:

http://biblehub.com/lexicon/1_peter/4-7.htm

On a strongly related note, I don't think it meant what people think it meant in verse 8 either. "Near", from peter's perspective is long gone.

 

And I need to say that we pretty much agree on a lot of this stuff, just not the alcohol thing. One of my key reasons is one of my foundational beliefs about Christianity, which I'll be putting in my si (in different words). That is, Chrisitanity is a "spirit of the law" belief. The man made religions (many of which are Christian in general beliefs) tend to be letter of the law. Islam is the worst, telling you which foot to use when stepping into a room, when to pray, etc.

 

Chrstianity treats us more like adults. Your parents told you as a child to look both ways when you cross the street. As an adult, they are not there ready to smack you if you don't. It's up to you. But know that if you are not careful and look both ways, it only takes once to be killed.

Christians are free, knowing we are his heirs. He will not write us out of the will if we go to a party and get drunk. That means we choose not to do that because we love our dad and want to please him, not because we're afraid he's gonna write us out of the will.  We also obey his commands because they are there because he knows what's best for us.

 

I love my creator/dad.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Still Alive

[Fidei Defensor]

I hate to burst the grape juice (non fermented) bubble but Jesus turned water into real wine: 

“and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now." (John 2:10) 

The word for wine here is Oinos:

“oinos: wine

Original Word: οἶνος, ου, ὁ (Oivov) 

Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine

Transliteration: oinos

Phonetic Spelling: (oy'-nos)

Short Definition: wine

Definition: wine.” (Stong’s Concordance)

Here are examples:

οἶνον ►

Englishman's Concordance οἶνον (oinon) — 19 Occurrences Matthew 9:17 N-AMS GRK: οὐδὲ βάλλουσιν οἶνον νέον εἰς NAS: new wine into old KJV: do men put new wine into old INT: Nor put they wine new into Matthew 9:17 N-AMS GRK: ἀλλὰ βάλλουσιν οἶνον νέον εἰς NAS: new wine into fresh KJV: they put new wine into new INT: but they put wine new into Matthew 27:34 N-AMS GRK: αὐτῷ πιεῖν οἶνον μετὰ χολῆς NAS: they gave Him wine to drink mixed INT: him to drink wine with gall Mark 2:22 N-AMS GRK: οὐδεὶς βάλλει οἶνον νέον εἰς NAS: puts new wine into old wineskins; KJV: putteth new wine into old INT: no one puts wine new into Mark 2:22 N-AMS GRK: ἀσκοί ἀλλὰ οἶνον νέον εἰς NAS: [as well]; but [one puts] new wine into fresh KJV: but new wine must be put into INT: wineskins but wine new into Mark 15:23 N-AMS GRK: αὐτῷ ἐσμυρνισμένον οἶνον ὃς δὲ NAS: They tried to give Him wine mixed with myrrh; KJV: to drink wine mingled with myrrh: INT: him mixed with gall wine he moreover Luke 1:15 N-AMS GRK: Κυρίου καὶ οἶνον καὶ σίκερα NAS: and he will drink no wine or liquor, KJV: neither wine nor INT: Lord and wine and strong drink Luke 5:37 N-AMS GRK: οὐδεὶς βάλλει οἶνον νέον εἰς NAS: puts new wine into old wineskins; KJV: putteth new wine into old INT: no one puts wine new into Luke 5:38 N-AMS GRK: ἀλλὰ οἶνον νέον εἰς NAS: But new wine must be put into fresh KJV: But new wine must be put into INT: but wine new into Luke 7:33 N-AMS GRK: μήτε πίνων οἶνον καὶ λέγετε NAS: no wine, and you say, KJV: nor drinking wine; and ye say, INT: nor drinking wine and you say Luke 10:34 N-AMS GRK: ἔλαιον καὶ οἶνον ἐπιβιβάσας δὲ NAS: oil and wine on [them]; and he put KJV: oil and wine, and set INT: oil and wine having put moreover John 2:3 N-AMS GRK: πρὸς αὐτόν Οἶνον οὐκ ἔχουσιν NAS: to Him, They have no wine. KJV: They have no wine. INT: to him Wine not they have John 2:9 N-AMS GRK: τὸ ὕδωρ οἶνον γεγενημένον καὶ NAS: which had become wine, and did not know KJV: the water that was made wine, and knew INT: the water wine that had become and John 2:10 N-AMS GRK: τὸν καλὸν οἶνον τίθησιν καὶ NAS: serves the good wine first, and when KJV: doth set forth good wine; and when INT: the good wine sets on and John 2:10 N-AMS GRK: τὸν καλὸν οἶνον ἕως ἄρτι NAS: the good wine until KJV: hast kept the good wine until now. INT: the good wine until now John 4:46 N-AMS GRK: τὸ ὕδωρ οἶνον Καὶ ἦν NAS: the water wine. And there was a royal official KJV: he made the water wine. And there was INT: the water wine And there was Romans 14:21 N-AMS GRK: μηδὲ πιεῖν οἶνον μηδὲ ἐν NAS: to drink wine, or KJV: to drink wine, nor INT: nor drink wine nor in Revelation 6:6 N-AMS GRK: καὶ τὸν οἶνον μὴ ἀδικήσῃς NAS: the oil and the wine. KJV: the oil and the wine. INT: and the wine not you might damage Revelation 18:13 N-AMS GRK: λίβανον καὶ οἶνον καὶ ἔλαιον NAS: and frankincense and wine and olive oil KJV: frankincense, and wine, and oil, INT: frankincense and wine and oil

 

Even the Apostle Paul told Timothy to drink some wine for his condition, “

Don't drink only water. You ought to drink a little wine for the sake of your stomach because you are sick so often.” (1 Timothy 5:23). 

 

I personally don’t drink and to advise people to be sober minded in these times, “The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray,” (1 Peter 4:7, but I refuse to teach that wine is evil and must be forbidden to all (prohibition), “They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” (1 Timothy 4:3). 

A time will come when our Lord will drink the fruit of vine and so will we, “Mark my words--I will not drink wine again until the day I drink it new with you in my Father's Kingdom." (Matthew 26:29). 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[Mike Mclees]

It may be alright to have some wine but better not to drink at all for the weaks sake. If you want hell on earth live with a drinking man or women who can't handle it 

 

[Still Alive]

9 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

It may be alright to have some wine but better not to drink at all for the weaks sake. If you want hell on earth live with a drinking man or women who can't handle it 

This happened to an acquaintance. His wife has been having serious problems with alcohol. He's built up a very successful business, though they still live in a rented condo, but a nice one. One day she was drunk while he was out doing something with their kids. She destroyed all of their TV's, broke nick nacks around the house and bashed in pretty much all of the walls, and ripped up the carpet.

This was all because, well, she was really drunk and was jealous. Why is she jealous? The answer is interesting. It is because she KNOWS that she gives him reason to dump her almost daily. She comes from a "rough" family where her sisters are in and out of jail for drugs. One simply disappeared, leaving her kids with her parents. They come from a very poor background. She has not learned how to handle the money he now earns.

I witnessed her actions once and is was seriously scary. The whole extended family (and friends - me) was at their house for thanksgiving and she went berserk, calling their children's female cousins "whores" (yelling it) in front of everyone. And this is not a trashy family nor neighborhood, if you get my drift.

I thought their relationship was doomed.  Nope.

They spend several tens of thousands remodeling, replacing all the TV's, etc. and now NEITHER of them drinks. At all. It's been ten months (since last Thanksgiving) and everything is going great so far. Really good.

I know what you are talking about. And it can be a serious problem.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Still Alive

[Fidei Defensor]

29 minutes ago, Mike Mclees said:

It may be alright to have some wine but better not to drink at all for the weaks sake. If you want hell on earth live with a drinking man or women who can't handle it 

 

Indeed. Temperance is key. If a person has alcoholic family members or ancestors better forget about drinking even a sip. Wine is like anything, in moderation and for health and flavor purposes it is good, but used to medicate and deal with life and you create Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide. 

[Riccardo]

On 7/21/2018 at 9:41 AM, Fidei Defensor said:

“In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.” (Luke 22:20). 

On the other hand Peter and Paul tell us to be sober minded and if you have alcoholic tendencies in your family it is best to abstain. 

 Are saying that Jesus has created alcoholic wine, & also in the communion service as well is alcoholic wine? 

The 2 scriptures above were inspired by the same Holy spirit & will not contradict. If it is alcoholic wine in the communion service there is a classic contradiction. 

Jesus is our unblemished lamb, only unblemished wine can be used to represent His blood, therefore it cant be alcoholic which has to rot for the fermentation process.

"Oinos" was the Greek word for wine, both alcoholic & non alcoholic though some want to believe to many computer sights to the contrary.

Horace the poet born in 68BC There is no wine sweeter to drink than that of Lesbos, it was like a nectar & would not produce intoxication. 

There were other processes in Christs day for preservation & where they could have wine throughout the year when the grapes were out go season, one such method was boiling to make a syrup & mix with water later.  

God bless

 

[Mike Mclees]

14 hours ago, Riccardo said:

 Are saying that Jesus has created alcoholic wine, & also in the communion service as well is alcoholic wine? 

The 2 scriptures above were inspired by the same Holy spirit & will not contradict. If it is alcoholic wine in the communion service there is a classic contradiction. 

Jesus is our unblemished lamb, only unblemished wine can be used to represent His blood, therefore it cant be alcoholic which has to rot for the fermentation process.

"Oinos" was the Greek word for wine, both alcoholic & non alcoholic though some want to believe to many computer sights to the contrary.

Horace the poet born in 68BC There is no wine sweeter to drink than that of Lesbos, it was like a nectar & would not produce intoxication. 

There were other processes in Christs day for preservation & where they could have wine throughout the year when the grapes were out go season, one such method was boiling to make a syrup & mix with water later.  

God bless

 

Personally I think wine tastes terrible   ? 

[Blood Bought 1953]

 

In my misspent youth i put away more than my share of Ripple wine and MD20/20, but I suspect those are not the types of wine we are discussing here......when I was not stealing Ripple, I remember it cost 89 cents a fifth.....it was overpriced.......lol