The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Larry 2]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Tell me, where was Jesus when this question was asked:

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

On the throne in heaven set for Him in Rev 4:2.

Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb . . 

Thanks for your time, and I'm bailing on this thread. First of all, I have great trouble finding answers to my questions, and then I don't receive notifications of replies on this forum,  making it hard to just find the thread replies. 

E.g., I have yet to find anyone on any forum to ever tell me who Jesus' angel is; it's very hard having a one sided discussion. 

Blessings in Christ Jesus. 

[Last Daze]

17 minutes ago, Larry 2 said:

On the throne in heaven set for Him in Rev 4:2.

Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb . . 

Thanks for your time, and I'm bailing on this thread. First of all, I have great trouble finding answers to my questions, and then I don't receive notifications of replies on this forum,  making it hard to just find the thread replies. 

E.g., I have yet to find anyone on any forum to ever tell me who Jesus' angel is; it's very hard having a one sided discussion. 

Blessings in Christ Jesus. 

No, because when the question was asked, verse 3 states that And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  So where was Jesus when no one was found  that was able to open the book?

[Unfailing Presence]

On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:15 AM, Last Daze said:

At its core, the pretrib rapture teaches an entitlement for a privileged few believers.  To receive this entitlement, simply be alive at a certain point in time and "poof", you get to avoid the troubles and trials that none of your predecessors in Christ got to avoid.  Sound too good to be true?  That's because it is.  It makes no sense that all of the church from the first century onward would be subjected to trials and tribulation and persecution while others won't be solely because they were alive at a particular point in time, but that's what the pretrib teaches. 

 

Peter tried  stomping his feet, holding his breath , in front of Jesus  whining for  everything to be  equal , fair , the same , as well . 

Jesus set him straight however :

                                                           " Peter seeing him saith to Jesus ,  '  Lord and what shall this man do ? ' 

                                                              Jesus saith unto him , If I will that he tarry till I come , WHAT IS THAT TO THEE ? 

                                                              Follow thou me . 

                                                                                                                   ( John 21 : 21 )

The same principle of who stays , who goes ,  that Jesus laid out for individuals to Peter , applies to groups as well . 

I have no assurance that I will be in any particular departure group ,,, BUT WHAT IS THAT TO ME ?

Nothing !  

Therefore you will not hear me whining & moaning about what someone else gets to do  .

Because I know my final destination , and that is all that matters .

Follow Him !

[Diaste]

10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

No, because when the question was asked, verse 3 states that And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  So where was Jesus when no one was found  that was able to open the book?

I don't want to appear flippant but, Stage Left?

What if this was just a dramatic moment for effect emphasizing the profound victory of Christ? 

I have my doubt's John related a full inventory or roster of the scene in the throne room, but only that which was allowed or permissible at that moment.

It's always hard to conclude anything on lack of evidence and for me I don't see any evidence confirming just where Jesus was, or was not, during this scene. 

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Good morning Brother Last Daze.  That said, I'm assuming you believe that any present with Jesus in scripture prior to Rev 6:16-17 are not pre-trib saints?

Who are the twenty-four elders & four living ones with Jesus in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6? How do they get there prior to the seals being opened? Aren't they part of the Church? The living ones are even associated with Jesus in the opening of the seals in Rev 6:1, Rev 6:3, Rev 6:4, & Rev 6:7. Are they priviledged, or just written in for effect? 

Who is Jesus' angel? 

Thanks.

There isn't any evidence in scripture that clarifies the existence of the elders or the four living creatures, other than 'they are'. They exist. What scripture speaks to origin or their lifespan? None that I know. It's plausible the elders and the four living creatures only existed for a short time e.g., since a pretrib 'rapture'. It's just as plausible these personalities have existed in the court of God since forever. Our Father created many beings from the beginning. Who's to say our Father did not create an administration to which He would delegate responsibility? In truth this action of delegating responsibility has existed in the administration of the Most High from the start. 

It appears a reasonable conclusion with a high probability of accuracy the elders and the four living creatures have always been in the court of El Shaddai, the inner circle, most exalted advisers, as it were. Or perhaps these are the Watchers we hear about, God's holy observers of the state of the earth and the affairs of mankind.

But it's still just speculation unless we have some scriptural evidence speaking to origin and longevity, purpose and meaning, but we don't. Unless you know of scripture that speaks to these issues.

 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I don't want to appear flippant but, Stage Left?

What if this was just a dramatic moment for effect emphasizing the profound victory of Christ? 

I have my doubt's John related a full inventory or roster of the scene in the throne room, but only that which was allowed or permissible at that moment.

It's always hard to conclude anything on lack of evidence and for me I don't see any evidence confirming just where Jesus was, or was not, during this scene. 

The purpose of the throne room scene of Revelation 4 & 5 is to show the worthiness of the Lamb to open the seals.  It uses a "before and after" comparison to demonstrate that.  Before the Word became flesh and became victorious over sin and death, there was no one anywhere found worthy to open the seals.  After His resurrection, Jesus had overcome  and was found worthy.  Consequently, the four creatures and 24 elders sang a new song.  

The point being that the 24 elders existed before the Lamb was slain and can not possibly represent the new covenant church.

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The purpose of the throne room scene of Revelation 4 & 5 is to show the worthiness of the Lamb to open the seals.  It uses a "before and after" comparison to demonstrate that.  Before the Word became flesh and became victorious over sin and death, there was no one anywhere found worthy to open the seals.  After His resurrection, Jesus had overcome  and was found worthy.  Consequently, the four creatures and 24 elders sang a new song.  

The point being that the 24 elders existed before the Lamb was slain and can not possibly represent the new covenant church.

Agreed. I may have not understood the question.

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The point being that the 24 elders existed before the Lamb was slain and can not possibly represent the new covenant church.

This is not what Scripture says.  After this I looked,  After the letters to the 7 Churches, I saw.  The only ones promised a crown, besides Christ are those of the Church, His Bride.

 In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

This is not what Scripture says.  After this I looked,  After the letters to the 7 Churches, I saw.  The only ones promised a crown, besides Christ are those of the Church, His Bride.

 In Christ

Montana Marv

Believe what you wish.  Just be ready for when your perceptions don't align with reality.

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Believe what you wish.  Just be ready for when your perceptions don't align with reality.

1 Cor 9:25b - but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.  Phil 4:1 - Therefore, my brothers, you whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, that is how you should stand firm in the Lord, dear friends.  1 Thes 2:19 - For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes.  2 Tim 4:8 - Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day... and to all who have longed for his appearing.

And all this is promised to Believers in Christ Jesus.  For this is reality.  It is what has been promised to us.  And we see 24 elders in heaven who are wearing crowns.  The Bema Seat of Christ is where  N. T. Believers in Christ receive their rewards (crowns).  So in Rev chapter 4 and 5, the rewards (crowns) have already been given out, and all this before the 1st Seal is even opened.

Believe what you must believe.  You have no evidence of crowns (rewards) being given out to any other individuals, except those of the Church.

In Christ

Montana Marv