The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Montana Marv]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John was in heaven but the scene was earth.  I don't think there is a REAL white horse and rider; they are to REPRESENT the church.

The White horse is a generals horse.  Through out the ages the victors came riding a white horse, suggesting dominance.  All the S, T, and B's are opened in heaven, but their effects are dealt to the earth and those who live on the earth.  There is no evidence of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Seals affecting the earth.  Because that is the case, the 1st Seal has not been opened either. 

All the S, T, and B's can easily fit into the last 42 months.  It is best to begin at the last Bowl and work your way forward to the 1st Seal.  God is orchestrating all, and one objective is to have all remaining people alive to view His Second Coming.  For this to happen all must be within a approximate 2,000 mile radius of the Mt of Olives.  Then, many of the Trumpet judgments can be seen as moving the populations and thus bring them within this radius.  1/3 of the sea turning to blood, 1/3 of the rivers and springs turning bitter.  These are population movers.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Alan Hales]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:26 AM, Diaste said:

Yes, I understand you said believers are in tribulation because they were not watching and/or adding to God's word. 

It's not adding to God's word that's the problem. It's adding to or subtracting from the prophecy of the Revelation .

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."

None of those people will join the heavenly assembly. If the plagues in the book are added to them which add to the prophecy then they have found their destiny, and it will not be the throne room.

At issue are those who receive Jesus as savior during the tribulation period. "Why are they destined to endure wrath when holy writ forbids that scenario?"

The great tribulation period, is the dispensation of wrath, The devil's wrath against those who reject the mark of the beast, then God's wrath against them who accept the mark.  Whereas the Church age, [NOW] is the dispensation of Grace, And once the Church is taken to heaven, the tribulation period begins.  Two different dispensations.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

The White horse is a generals horse.  Through out the ages the victors came riding a white horse, suggesting dominance.  All the S, T, and B's are opened in heaven, but their effects are dealt to the earth and those who live on the earth.  There is no evidence of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Seals affecting the earth.  Because that is the case, the 1st Seal has not been opened either. 

All the S, T, and B's can easily fit into the last 42 months.  It is best to begin at the last Bowl and work your way forward to the 1st Seal.  God is orchestrating all, and one objective is to have all remaining people alive to view His Second Coming.  For this to happen all must be within a approximate 2,000 mile radius of the Mt of Olives.  Then, many of the Trumpet judgments can be seen as moving the populations and thus bring them within this radius.  1/3 of the sea turning to blood, 1/3 of the rivers and springs turning bitter.  These are population movers.

In Christ

Montana Marv

This is God's book revealing Jesus Christ. I don't think God really cares what color of horse a general rides. From Revelation as a whole, we know that God plans on color having a meaning, such as the fiery red for Satan. 

Here is how God used the color white in Revelation 16 other times:

Revelation 1:14   His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white  as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

 Revelation 2:17  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 Revelation 3:4  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

 Revelation 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in whiteraiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 Revelation 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 Revelation 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 Revelation 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 Revelation 7:9  fter this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 Revelation 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

 Revelation 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 Revelation 14:14  And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

 Revelation 15:6  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

 Revelation 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

 Revelation 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 Revelation 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 Revelation 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

In every case the argument could be made that God uses white to represent righteousness. Yet, you want just this one verse for white to represent something evil. I don't buy it. 

All the S, T, and B's are opened in heaven  Sorry, they were opened in visions but not in reality!  ONLY the first 5 seals have been opened. Seal 6 is in our future and it will take place when Jesus opens this seal. 

There is no evidence of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Seals affecting the earth.  I guess you missed the two world wars!

[Last Daze]

25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In every case the argument could be made that God uses white to represent righteousness. Yet, you want just this one verse for white to represent something evil. I don't buy it. 

So how does a bow represent the word of God?  Shouldn't he be wielding the sword of the Spirit?  Isn't Jesus pictured with a sword?  Or maybe I'm confused as to who you identify as the white horse rider.  Who exactly do you identify that person as?

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

So how does a bow represent the word of God?  Shouldn't he be wielding the sword of the Spirit?  Isn't Jesus pictured with a sword?  Or maybe I'm confused as to who you identify as the white horse rider.  Who exactly do you identify that person as?

I don't identify him. We don't need to know. Do you expect this is a REAL horse and a REAL rider? I don't. It is a symbol representing the church. Since the devil is the prince of the world, there MUST be conquering and overcoming to spread the gospel.  Neither Satan nor his principalities over territories would EVER allow free access for the gospel.  So blood was shed when ever the gospel advanced.  I don't know what the bow represents - but I KNOW it is not what Strong's suggest: a simple ribbon! No, the Greek word is TOXON. It is where we get toxic. That came from poison on the arrows. It is a real bow - the kind that shoots arrows.  So why no arrows? I can only guess that the church does not use physical weapons, but rather spiritual weapons. 

For our point of view, the church DID conquer, and now the gospel is almost everywhere. 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

The great tribulation period, is the dispensation of wrath, The devil's wrath against those who reject the mark of the beast, then God's wrath against them who accept the mark.  Whereas the Church age, [NOW] is the dispensation of Grace, And once the Church is taken to heaven, the tribulation period begins.  Two different dispensations.

Wow! Like a breath of fresh air! But I hear screaming in the distance from the naysayers. 

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The First Seal  Rev 6:2 - There before me was a white horse, Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown (Stephanos), and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

This scene is in heaven  and the rider (single) is a "He", and He rode out (from heaven), and he was given a crown and a bow.  The Church/Bride of Christ is always depicted as a "She" or "Her"  Rev 19:7,8 - ... for the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.  Fine linen, bright and clean was given her to wear.

The true meaning of the First Seal is Satan being given a bow and crown, and being mocked by the Angels (so to speak).  We see 24 Elders around the Throne in Heaven, before the Seals are open.  The title "Elder" is only given to those described in Titus 1:6,7 - An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient......v.7.  So the Church/Bride is already in Heaven before the Seals are even opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I notice you STILL have not studied the CONTEXT: chapters 4 & 5. How can you hope to get the truth of the first seal if you pull it from its context?

[Montana Marv]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I notice you STILL have not studied the CONTEXT: chapters 4 & 5. How can you hope to get the truth of the first seal if you pull it from its context?

The 24 Elders are some of the Believers; the Church, the Bride.  Already in heaven before the 1st Seal is even open.  Context, Context, Context.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The 24 Elders are some of the Believers; the Church, the Bride.  Already in heaven before the 1st Seal is even open.  Context, Context, Context.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Not even the commentators agree on who the 24 elders are. It is not wise to build doctrine on verses no one can agree on.

They do not have to be members of the church or the bride. Old testament saints had to rely on the blood of Jesus too. Jesus redeemed them as well as New Testament saints. I believe they are Old Testament Saints.   

Anyway, the 5th seal shows us that God is waiting for the full number of martyrs - church age martyrs. 

You see, if one does not get the first seal right, they will be wrong on many other things. 

Context context context:

Jesus not seen in chapter 4, but shows up in chapter 5.

The Holy Spirit there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5.

NO man found in chapter 4, but someone found in chapter 5. 

God is showing us the moving of time The difference between chapters 4 and 5 are TIME. Time has moved onward, and when time moves events happen. In this case, what event? Jesus rose from the dead, and was immediately found worthy.  Then He ascended. All this is to show TIME and TIMING. You want to ignore these things and set your own time. 

I will take God's timing over yours all the time.

[Montana Marv]

40 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus not seen in chapter 4, but shows up in chapter 5.

The Holy Spirit there in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5.

NO man found in chapter 4, but someone found in chapter 5. 

Rev 3:21b-22 -... just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches."  Jesus is here in heaven in Chp 3.  Now, Rev 4:1 - After this, I looked up and there before me was a door standing open in heaven.

I rest my case.  After Jesus sat down with his Father Rev 4 and on begins.

In Christ

Montana Marv