We Don't Do Sermons

[Marathoner]

I understand more clearly than I did a long time ago. I have witnessed firsthand that with much wisdom comes much sorrow; where knowledge increases, so does grief. There really is nothing new under the sun.

What is tradition? Lying tongues swift to slander, and mouths that dine in houses built atop the bones of the dead. Lips which profess the name of the Holy One while murdering their fellow man; hollow platitudes uttered within tombs whitewashed with the appearance of cleanliness on the outside, but inside they are filthy and reek of death.

Pride is the herald of tradition, my friends. There is a certain pride which swells up in a man and it is a terrible thing to witness. Our Lord Jesus Christ overturned the tables of the moneylenders and denounced whitewashed tombs when He walked among us, and the pridefully jealous --- jealousy is the spouse of pride,  yes? --- gnashed their teeth and plotted to slay Him.

Tradition looks back toward yesterday, bemoaning that today is more evil than the day before it ever was, but scripture rebukes prideful tradition by teaching us that was done before shall be done again: the evil of yesterday is most assuredly the evil of today. Thus, there is nothing new under the sun.

There is a disconnect which I struggled to comprehend, and I asked the Lord why this was so. Why do some, who pound upon tables proudly declaring themselves "bible believers," ignore the testimony of Your words? Did You not tell us that this world of men was under the power of the wicked one? 

Then why are so many snared by this world, Lord? I have not forgotten His merciful kindness toward me in this estate, that I was born into affliction and fear so I might learn what it means to resist this body which is perishing. Before He came, I saw it and despaired, seeking to end my life because I could not face those horrors of yesterday. 

When the Lord came and claimed me, He gave rest for my soul. See to it that you do not become that which you despise, the Spirit instructed me in those hard places of yesterday, never forgetting where you came from. Wisdom given by the Lord doesn't puff up the prideful but rather, humbles us in sorrows. Don't be high-minded or haughty, looking upon others with scornful disdain. 

I was scorned so I would learn not to be scornful. I lost everything so that the Lord would give me everything, and now I have witnessed that root of pride in men: it's fear. Fear of the unknown... fear of losing everything... fear of becoming that which one despises. Fear of being mocked by one's peers. 

When the tables are overturned do we rejoice in the Lord, or do we gnash these teeth? The tradition of today is no different than the tradition of yesterday, for there is nothing new under the sun. This world of men has never loved the Lord at any time.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Marathoner

[Sower]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

It seems you have some knowledge of home fellowships so if can provide evidence of them not being Scriptural I would gladly discuss that.

Never said home fellowships were un scriptural, to my recollection. However there are several concerns I addressed in previous posts un answered and you did not seem to glad to discuss.

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Children that come to simple in-house fellowship get all the attention and care they need, some really enjoy being part of the group, others are provided for in rooms or outdoors with interesting activities, and we come and go from each other's places or go on trips any given day off the week, always helping each other as required and sharing meals, children included. Great fun. Love it. 

That's cool. Do you still have the kids come to your men's fellowship now. Or in the winter, throughout the year, providing the study of the word, or some kind of training/activities. Our church also has plenty of activities indoor and out. Yet still have a age appropriate Sunday bible study given by other members. Regularly.

Our church also has a Christian school, 1st to 12th. The church considered it a ministry at first, but now so many parents are taking kid out of public school it is now self sustainable paying it's own way with increasing attendance.  I also remember listening to Dr,James Dobson of Focus on the family emphasizing the need to have our kids attending a church that had many instructions, courses, activity for the kids and young adults. And if our church didn't have any, to move to one that did, or they will find on their on a place/friends to hang out.
It's that important.

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I've actually been deeply involved in Youth and Children's Ministry, many years as a teacher with the AOG, also as a Royal Rangers' Chaplain (in uniform with gold cross & Lieutenant's pips), and was Superintendent of the Children's Ministry for a while in an Apostolic satellite assembly that began in a school near us. We would end up with as many as 18 children in our swimming pool at home, and would have certain fellowship families bringing their offspring to swim nearly every day in summer. These children have grown up now and some are married with children of their own.

That's nice. But I'm interested in what your home church does for the children and young adults, young married couples, seniors, and how that works, to get a better understanding, and help others reading to consider your church methods that may interest them. I'm not against home church and never was. I just have reservations listening to some who have a great idea but never really considered just what all is involved when trying to minister to a community of all the people, and not just a few friends. Like new believers, and newly saved young married with a baby or two. Facilities rooms refreshments chairs tables bibles etc etc. Unless your goal is to reach a target membership and then close the doors.

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Ministry doesn't just happen in specially designed buildings with sacred furnishings and tightly structured services, it happens where two or three are gathered in the Lord's Name

"specially designed buildings with sacred furnishings and tightly
structured services"

Aw Michael...

I believe I'm beginning to understand. Is it that you and your friends do not plan to grow?  Keep it at two or three? Never have to obtain a larger 'home' to accommodate growth? Start small and stay small, and ask God to not bring visitors who may ask to join you. So what about the millions who also need to hear the word and be discipleship?

I'll just assume you witness the gospel to the lost and your friends also witness. When God blesses, where do you tell new baby believers to go for discipleship? Another home group who also wishes to remain small. Or form their own, as young believers needing help to grow spiritually? Have you and your group discussed these and many other  considerations?

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Sure, people come and go from every fellowship, and since 1996 when the Lord provided me with a Nissan diesel truck, it has been put to use moving fellowship folk and families across town and to other parts of the country. It's called "mobility". Saints come and go in each other's lives and even if we help someone who bites our hand later, it's walking by faith that counts, not pleasing man.

Blessings from Michael37

Walking by faith means walking by faith. In everything we do, and we are supposed to love one another, pleasing man woman or child when able. Not allow false teachings within the body. Yes.

Bites our hand and pleasing man??
You have already given you opinion of traditional church, over and over. I have tried to bring the discussion back to how you and your friends do church, or whatever you call it, so myself and others can have an idea of the whole of your home church and not just the fellowship and swimming/outings. Would have appreciated it should you have addressed my concerns, but since you feel you have said enough about your home church, I will have to let it go.

I wish you well, Michael.  

I kiss my wife every night, and every Friday is our date night, every fall our family goes to some old waterfront cabins on the coast a few weeks fishing and fellowship, every summer our church has vacation bible school where scripture is taught and many come to saving faith, every year we have a day to give thank to God for all our blessings, called Thanksgiving. Good traditions!

Sure there are bad ones, but not all traditions are evil.
  Many bless us, and some bless God.

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.   1 Corinthians 11:2 niv

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.    2 Thessalonians 2:15

 

 

 

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Sower said:

I believe I'm beginning to understand. Is it that you and your friends do not plan to grow?  Keep it at two or three? Never have to obtain a larger 'home' to accommodate growth? Start small and stay small, and ask God to not bring visitors who may ask to join you. So what about the millions who also need to hear the word and be discipleship?

I'm not going to butt heads over the details you think need addressing but if you want a better idea there are plenty of books on the subject of home fellowship. 

Quote:

"Are you a Christian who is faithfully attending church but becoming more and more frustrated with the experience? Do you read the Bible and see a contrast between what you read and what happens at church today? If the church of today does not truly reflect what the Bible teaches, what alternatives do we have? This book will provide a Biblical alternative to the established way of ‘doing’ church. It will also help to set you free from various religious practices which are making God’s Word of no effect in the lives of many believers today."

The above quote is from the advert for a book called Why I Love Home Church. The young 30 something author and his growing family were in fellowship with us here while he wrote this book prior to them moving, as referenced earlier. A group member, a former retired AOG pastor of many years, now in his seventies, wrote the preface.

Another member of our fellowship was a former Baptist pastor with six children under 22, who stepped down from his congregation after his wife passed away from cancer, and then after a few years with us moved back to Australia to be near extended family, leaving his oldest "transgender" daughter here.

Also among our retinue were a couple who had been on a Mercy Ship and had been missionaries in Portugal. 

Sufficient to say that the "one-size-fits-all" mentality is being ignored by those who have been part of it and have found it restricting their spiritual growth. When groups get too big, as they do, we split them, no big deal, fellowship-folk still network and free-range in fellowships such as yours if the Spirit leads.

[Heleadethme]

On 8/17/2018 at 3:30 AM, Michael37 said:

Looking forward to koinonia on Sunday. Be travelling away this week.

No-one will be doing a sermon.

We don't do sermons at our ekklesia (assembly).

We do paraklēsis (exhortation).

We do oikodomē  (edification).

We do diakonia (ministry).

But we don't do sermons.

No sermons.

How do you like them apples? 

I like them!  Where do we see the word "sermon" in the bible?  Or a thing called church "services" for that matter.  What we see is simply...."When you come together..."  or "wherever two or three are gathered in my my name."  How quickly after the first century we turned the simplicity of Christ into something professional and formal that God didn't intend.  That's the way of the world and flesh, not the way of Christ and the Spirit.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Heleadethme

[Mr. M]

Public Service and the role of the priests.

Nehemiah 8:1 Now all the people gathered together as one man in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate; and they told Ezra the scribe to bring the Book of the Law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded Israel. 2 So Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly of men and women and all who could hear with understanding on the first day of the seventh month. 3 Then he read from it in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate from morning until midday, before the men and women and those who could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive to the Book of the Law. 4 So Ezra the scribe stood on a platform of wood which they had made for the purpose; and beside him, at his right hand, stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Urijah, Hilkiah, and Maaseiah; and at his left hand Pedaiah, Mishael, Malchijah, Hashum, Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam. 5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up. 6 And Ezra blessed the Lord, the great God. Then all the people answered, “Amen, Amen!” while lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground.

7 Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, helped the people to understand the Law; and the people stood in their place. 8 So they read distinctly from the book, in the Law of God; and they gave the sense, and helped them to understand the reading.

Malachi 2:

4 Then you shall know that I have sent this commandment to you,
That My covenant with Levi may continue, says the Lord of hosts.
5 My covenant was with him, one of life and peace,
And I gave them to him that he might fear Me;
So he feared Me and was reverent before My name.
6 The law of truth was in his mouth,
And injustice was not found on his lips.
He walked with Me in peace and equity,
And turned many away from iniquity.

7 For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
8 But you have departed from the way;
You have caused many to stumble upon the law.
You have corrupted the covenant of Levi,
Says the Lord of hosts.
9 Therefore I also have made you contemptible and base
Before all the people,
Because you have not kept My ways
But have shown partiality in the law.

Whether you call it a sermon or something else, the

priesthood is responsible for bringing understanding

to the people. When we speak by the Spirit, we all can

contribute, and this responsibility increases as we grow 

in grace.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 

Paul's instructions were clearly to be applied to a manageable home group, as all met at host homes, such as Chloe's. Meanwhile the saints at Jerusalem, like the Lord before them, congregated at the Temple courts and taught the people daily.

Acts 4:1 Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.

  There is clearly an application for both; preaching, teaching, sermons, etc...and mutual sharing of exhortation, edification, and comfort. Sound teaching will always be hindered without a continual growth toward a greater maturity among the members of the congregation.

Hebrews 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[Mr. M]

10 hours ago, Sower said:

Sure there are bad ones, but not all traditions are evil.
  Many bless us, and some bless God.

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.   1 Corinthians 11:2 niv

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.    2 Thessalonians 2:15

A fine point. Paul also said "all things are lawful, but not all edify".

There is a broad range of interpretation for how to

conduct meetings, because what matters is that

the Holy Spirit shows up and ministers.

Traditions are only condemned when they

conflict with God's word.

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them,

Why do you also transgress the commandment of God

because of your tradition?

We should hold to the tradition of breaking bread

to open fellowship, as Paul received from the Lord

and delivered to the gentiles. 1 Co 11

Edited February 13, 2023 by Mr. M
cosmetic

[Ray12614]

I see that this thread started back in 2011, which is what . . . 22+ years ago? I joined Worthy around 2019, so I don't even know if the posters are still with us or not. Somebody activated it by commenting . . . LOL

I find it amazing that now as well as then there are professing Christians who hate any organized ministry, OR any assembly what so ever. Alas . . . . .   

40 years of being saved, I have done it all, big, small, in-between, home, business settings, home, bible studies, and the like. Formalized deadness, and free-for-all chaos . . . 

I can assure anybody who reads this that assemblies (churches) are the place for exhortation/teaching of sound doctrine and should be 'pillars of truth'. They should be an anointed mix of Holy Spirit gifts, sound teaching, and fellowship. The Ephesian 4 gifts should be present and active in the local assemblies.

There are spiritual things we can give/receive in assemblies that cannot be given/obtained on an individual basis. Jesus designed His church that way whether we like it or not. We are HIS people, assemblies are His churches, and sound biblical teaching is HIS idea, not ours.

Lets cooperate with Him, and allow Him to teach and equip us for service and good works.

Grace and Peace . . . 

Ray . . . 

[kwikphilly]

On 2/12/2023 at 6:21 PM, Michael37 said:

Hi Sower, 

It seems you have some knowledge of home fellowships so if can provide evidence of them not being Scriptural I would gladly discuss that.

Children that come to simple in-house fellowship get all the attention and care they need, some really enjoy being part of the group, others are provided for in rooms or outdoors with interesting activities, and we come and go from each other's places or go on trips any given day off the week, always helping each other as required and sharing meals, children included. Great fun. Love it. 

I've actually been deeply involved in Youth and Children's Ministry, many years as a teacher with the AOG, also as a Royal Rangers' Chaplain (in uniform with gold cross & Lieutenant's pips), and was Superintendent of the Children's Ministry for a while in an Apostolic satellite assembly that began in a school near us. We would end up with as many as 18 children in our swimming pool at home, and would have certain fellowship families bringing their offspring to swim nearly every day in summer. These children have grown up now and some are married with children of their own.

Ministry doesn't just happen in specially designed buildings with sacred furnishings and tightly structured services, it happens where two or three are gathered in the Lord's Name

Sure, people come and go from every fellowship, and since 1996 when the Lord provided me with a Nissan diesel truck, it has been put to use moving fellowship folk and families across town and to other parts of the country. It's called "mobility". Saints come and go in each other's lives and even if we help someone who bites our hand later, it's walking by faith that counts, not pleasing man.

Blessings from Michael37 

 

Blessings Michael and Greetings,hope you day is FANTASTIC!!!!

  I sure do understand having old threads resurrected,hard to even recollect the state of mind we were in when we typed away at a 2,3 ,4or 5 yr ago OP-lol

  In any event,having said that,this means your lil home group is still going strong after 5 years! Id like to say"Praise the Lord & I wish you many more years to come"

 So,without meaning to sound sarcastic,is this a tradition now?lol   Everything y'all are doing seems customary and pretty organized.....I do think if your were to re-write the OP TODAY you might have said it a much different way.No,it is not about specifically structured bldgs or tightly scheduled services and you do have specifically structured bldgs within your gatherings(homes) and a schedule although its much more flexible and accommodating......

   there seems to be much ado about nothing here,wouldnt you agree? You GATHER,we GATHER,they GATHER.......it all sounds good to me-Glory to God

 HEy,what did the Apostle Paul say"And in that I REjoice-Christ is being Preached!"

        With love-in Christ,Kwik

+

 

[Michael37]

8 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Michael and Greetings,hope you day is FANTASTIC!!!!

  I sure do understand having old threads resurrected,hard to even recollect the state of mind we were in when we typed away at a 2,3 ,4or 5 yr ago OP-lol

  In any event,having said that,this means your lil home group is still going strong after 5 years! Id like to say"Praise the Lord & I wish you many more years to come"

 So,without meaning to sound sarcastic,is this a tradition now?lol   Everything y'all are doing seems customary and pretty organized.....I do think if your were to re-write the OP TODAY you might have said it a much different way.No,it is not about specifically structured bldgs or tightly scheduled services and you do have specifically structured bldgs within your gatherings(homes) and a schedule although its much more flexible and accommodating......

   there seems to be much ado about nothing here,wouldnt you agree? You GATHER,we GATHER,they GATHER.......it all sounds good to me-Glory to God

 HEy,what did the Apostle Paul say"And in that I REjoice-Christ is being Preached!"

        With love-in Christ,Kwik

 

Hi Kwik,

Yes, I still fellowship with saints in homes. I also drop in on pew-sitting congregations from time to time, and take in the sermons. 

I like some of the regular preachers we get on Christian radio here, which I listen to whilst attending to various tasks.

I have noticed legalism in the home fellowships, and the preparation for gatherings does involve repetition of tasks. Meetings do tend to follow a routine of meet and greet, take a seat, listen and speak, pray and eat.

Works for some, not so much for others.

[Vine Abider]

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Kwik,

Yes, I still fellowship with saints in homes. I also drop in on pew-sitting congregations from time to time, and take in the sermons. 

I like some of the regular preachers we get on Christian radio here, which I listen to whilst attending to various tasks.

I have noticed legalism in the home fellowships, and the preparation for gatherings does involve repetition of tasks. Meetings do tend to follow a routine of meet and greet, take a seat, listen and speak, pray and eat.

Works for some, not so much for others.

How much participation is encouraged from everyone?  And is it primarily one speaker or do others get the benefit of preparing the (spiritual) meals?