We Don't Do Sermons

[Marathoner]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Sorry @JayneDidn't think I was. Touching a nerve perhaps because it's a hot topic for some.

I "get" your perspective, and I recognize relevant undertones in what you've written. I've been blessed with a veritable sea of dear friends from across the oceans, having spent a considerable swathe of my days living outside of the United States, so I haven't picked up a need for offense. 

In fact, I appreciate the humor and wit you routinely engage in.

That's me, using my "inside voice" from my desk at work...

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, Marathoner said:

I "get" your perspective, and I recognize relevant undertones in what you've written. I've been blessed with a veritable sea of dear friends from across the oceans, having spent a considerable swathe of my days living outside of the United States, so I haven't picked up a need for offense. 

In fact, I appreciate the humor and wit you routinely engage in.

That's me, using my "inside voice" from my desk at work...

Nice one. 

I'm no stranger to controversy and "church" politics.

Growing up I was on evening tea or coffee duty once a month when the Vestry, (think board of elders, all men,) met in the lounge at the Vicarage which was our home. 

My Dad resisted retirement until the Archbishop forced him to submit, aged 68 & 1/2 years but prior to this I lobbied the Vestry not to push him out before he was ready.

He was used quite a bit in a relief role after that, but yes, emotions often ran high in the parishes we lived in, and even though I know the need to be sensitive I still have more to learn and apply.    

[Wayne222]

20 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Nice one. 

I'm no stranger to controversy and "church" politics.

Growing up I was on evening tea or coffee duty once a month when the Vestry, (think board of elders, all men,) met in the lounge at the Vicarage which was our home. 

My Dad resisted retirement until the Archbishop forced him to submit, aged 68 & 1/2 years but prior to this I lobbied the Vestry not to push him out before he was ready.

He was used quite a bit in a relief role after that, but yes, emotions often ran high in the parishes we lived in, and even though I know the need to be sensitive I still have more to learn and apply.    

Church of England ? Sounds like it. Could be wrong. 

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, Wayne222 said:

Church of England ? Sounds like it. Could be wrong. 

Yes  The "proper church" some of its adherents are inclined to think.

[Sower]

On 8/17/2018 at 2:30 AM, Michael37 said:

Looking forward to koinonia on Sunday. Be travelling away this week.

No-one will be doing a sermon.

We don't do sermons at our ekklesia (assembly).

We do paraklēsis (exhortation).

We do oikodomē  (edification).

We do diakonia (ministry).

But we don't do sermons.

No sermons.

How do you like them apples? 

Sounds like you are campaigning. (or justifying your decision)

Reading what you have recently posted, in the "proper church of England', I can relate having grown up in the "Holy Mother Roman Church." Even though I was an altar boy, constantly memorizing Latin responses, I felt as a youth an awe of the majestic reverence within the church.  (God was right up there in person on the altar!!---right?)

But that was a deception, as I grew up into adulthood, and realized real world life, then got saved, after hearing the gospel for the first time in a tiny protestant church funeral.

At the church I now attend for about forty yrs, we have about a hundred regulars, including all the family, kids etc, so about 20-25 families. One family has two parents and thirteen kids, probably larger than your men's group. I also believe the smaller the better as you have said, as at our church everybody knows everybody, like a family, the hurts and problems, deaths and births, marriages and different ministries involved in, vacation bible school, mission work etc.

Yes, it could improve, as any group of believers also change in age or personality etc. But my life revolves around my first ministry God gave me, my wife and family.
And our family is intertwined with many other 'church' families, even through marriage. It's not just a weekend day affair. Change can be slow.

What I don't understand, Michael, is the need to justify your decision to meet at homes with just a few like believers to anybody. I related/understood to your decision till the  "How do you like them apples?" comment,  which led me to believe you may not be comfortable or certain, stepping out from tradition.

If you want to meet as you do, cool. But it's not necessary to get 'approval/justification' from those who don't,  then rehashing  all the problems of traditional churches that, by the way, were responsible to a large degree, carrying on the work of the called out ones (for centuries) the body of Christ, (in all it's warts and wrinkles). Most here that are saved will probably tell you it was through a traditional church they heard the gospel.  Flawed but carrying on. It's about 140 yrs old. Wonder how many have come to a saving knowledge there?

I would say the large percentage of Worthy members do not go to a weekly church, large nor small, building or home style, and then some due to medical or transportation issues etc for a few. A lot of church bashing goes on, members say they cannot find a church that meets their requirements, or the good ones are too far to drive in their air conditioned cars. While in third world countries some travel for days (at night) avoiding imprisonment or death, just to meet in secrete to worship and fellowship, under the trees.

I often feel I have to defend the traditional church once or twice a year here in some posts. Weird, on a Christian forum. Why not talk about how some have made changes within their churches that blessed the body,  improved it, instead of abandoning it.

Tell us like you have about the good stuff that may be incorporated into a small church but larger than a home church. What do you believe is the biggest changes you like about your group that could work in a small church. When we pulled our kids out of the public government run schools and started teaching "home" school, we were warned by veteran home schoolers to NOT recreate the public school at home, but to stylize to fit our family. (Like adding truth and morals:)

Don't know, but do you have a nursery for babies and toddlers, youth group that meets also, ladies group, elderly group, or is it a men's only group? Do you anticipate your group out growing the home, or just split up to smaller ones. Is there any need to collect money for necessities or each home supplies?

Perhaps in your involvement you know of other groups that have accommodated the family/families and could share how they have adapted and yet still are able to have their assembly meet in a home. What would be considered the max members and still have the home church benefits? At what point in growth does it become too much like the traditional church?  Thanks for your reply, Michael.

 

 

[kwikphilly]

On 2/10/2023 at 5:33 PM, Michael37 said:

Yes, I was raised in what they call the Anglican Communion with its set prayers and formal liturgy. My clergymen father and grandfather were affable and educated but as children we were obliged to conform to the traditions and culture of this denomination.

Robes, rituals, and rigmaroles is how I describe it.

It was not all bad but I recall that from time to time a parishioner would approach my father to share their enthusiasm for changing to less formal ceremonies and more open meetings as you describe, and two things would emerge from such discussions, firstly that my father would lose his job if he didn't comply with the Anglican Uniformity style, and secondly that it would create a precedent whereby the whims of parishioners became the norm rather than the established Order of Service.

When I broke away from the Anglican Community 38 years ago at age 30, my widowed mother and other family members felt I had betrayed them and the "proper church" as they saw it.

I think I get it now- I was just scratching my head because after reading many many of your Spirit Filled posts over the years I just could not understand where all this mockery of " typical church" traditions was coming from,I mean even down to the pews & pulpits!!!!!

But after reading your own personal experiences,I get it.And btw,I can relate to it having grown up in a Italian catholic family!!! The huge,gawdy,elaborately decorated buildings complete with stained glass windows,gold ornamentation,massive marble statues,intimidating pulpit with velvet pews.... All the rcc traditions,customs,rituals and routine calisthenics ( kneel,sit, stand,kneel,sit,stand) lol

Anyway,however one joins together with others to Praise,pray& worship is not of my concern as long as they are hearing the Word of God-& that comes in the form of a sermon .I don't think it matters where anyone gathers with the Body of Believers,I don't think when,how or what building they use,what they sit on or if they have a stage,pulpit ,soap box or nothing at all     It matters that God is in our Midst where there are 2 or more in His Name!

There are many alternative churches,church settings & church programs - what I can't figure out is why knock what anyone else does?

With love in Christ, Kwik

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Sower said:

Sounds like you are campaigning. (or justifying your decision)

Hi Sower,

Back in August 2018 when I posted this recently resurrected thread, it seemed the only way to get traction on the forums was to court controversy, and as you are aware, anything that broaches the denominational divide is bound to excite opinions from many quarters.

When a retired Anglican clergyman who had gone through seminary with my late father discovered in 1985 that I was no longer attending services at St. Aidans Anglican Church but was involved with the large AOG in our city, he went ballistic, insisting that I come out of it and submit to his patronising influence. I declined to do so, deciding to risk the consequences he warned me of.

The pentecostal apple is as sour to some as it is sweet to others, and the ceasationist apple is as bitter to some as it is delicious to others.  

There's an interesting statement by Jeremiah who campaigned if you will, against the domination, intimidation, manipulation, and seduction of God's people in Israel, which they were comfortable with. 

Jer 5:30-31  "An astonishing and horrible thing Has been committed in the land:  (31)  The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Yes, it does make people uncomfortable to have their traditions and rituals and customs and culture challenged, but isn't that exactly what Jesus Himself does? 

[Marathoner]

10 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Sower,

Back in August 2018 when I posted this recently resurrected thread, it seemed the only way to get traction on the forums was to court controversy, and as you are aware, anything that broaches the denominational divide is bound to excite opinions from many quarters.

When a retired Anglican clergyman who had gone through seminary with my late father discovered in 1985 that I was no longer attending services at St. Aidans Anglican Church but was involved with the large AOG in our city, he went ballistic, insisting that I come out of it and submit to his patronising influence. I declined to do so, deciding to risk the consequences he warned me of.

The pentecostal apple is as sour to some as it is sweet to others, and the ceasationist apple is as bitter to some as it is delicious to others.  

There's an interesting statement by Jeremiah who campaigned if you will, against the domination, intimidation, manipulation, and seduction of God's people in Israel, which they were comfortable with. 

Jer 5:30-31  "An astonishing and horrible thing Has been committed in the land:  (31)  The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Yes, it does make people uncomfortable to have their traditions and rituals and customs and culture challenged, but isn't that exactly what Jesus Himself does? 

That reminds me of what I experienced 30 years ago. 

Before I was finished preparing to go where the Lord intended for me to go, I encountered resistance from folks at a large church I was visiting at the time. I was giving my possessions away? I abandoned a lucrative job with a newspaper? Had I lost my mind?

Ah, but when the senior pastor caught wind of where I was spending increasing amounts of time, I was called in to meet with him. He was concerned that I was overzealous and unwise, so he explained that the Lord didn't actually require us to part ways with possessions nor leave a job that paid well. Also, the part of town that I was roaming was very dangerous, known for crime and violence. No one in their right mind would voluntarily go to that part of town, he said. He did commend my zeal, suggesting that I join their witnessing ministry. There were safer places for me to go. 

I said nothing, brother. I remembered those fiery sermons delivered from his pulpit, how holiness and dedication were pleasing to the Lord; and here this man was counseling me to avoid visiting the sick, the oppressed, and the needy all because it was taking place in the "bad" part of town. We cast everything aside to follow Jesus Christ in theory only, it seemed. The practical portion? Well, it just wasn't practical, you see. I would understand one day. 

I paid them no mind for the Lord came for the sick, the needy, and the oppressed, not the comfortable, insolent, and the content. I was thankful for that experience, my friend. It opened my eyes wide indeed. The Lord never intended for me to remain among them anyway. It was merely a stop along the way toward my destination. 

Even now, a brother whom I love dearly prays that the Lord deliver me from the Warzone of this city. He reads the news... and I cautioned him that what surfaces in the news is only a pittance of what happens beyond the knowledge of those who don't walk in this place. I bear with him for I know that he means well... but I have told him the following more than once. 

Brother, the Lord sent me here! Why would He then deliver me from the harvest field? This is what I was born to do.  

[Sower]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Hi Sower,

Back in August 2018 when I posted this recently resurrected thread, it seemed the only way to get traction on the forums was to court controversy, and as you are aware, anything that broaches the denominational divide is bound to excite opinions from many quarters.

When a retired Anglican clergyman who had gone through seminary with my late father discovered in 1985 that I was no longer attending services at St. Aidans Anglican Church but was involved with the large AOG in our city, he went ballistic, insisting that I come out of it and submit to his patronising influence. I declined to do so, deciding to risk the consequences he warned me of.

The pentecostal apple is as sour to some as it is sweet to others, and the ceasationist apple is as bitter to some as it is delicious to others.  

There's an interesting statement by Jeremiah who campaigned if you will, against the domination, intimidation, manipulation, and seduction of God's people in Israel, which they were comfortable with. 

Jer 5:30-31  "An astonishing and horrible thing Has been committed in the land:  (31)  The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Yes, it does make people uncomfortable to have their traditions and rituals and customs and culture challenged, but isn't that exactly what Jesus Himself does? 

"Yes, it does make people uncomfortable to have their traditions and rituals and customs and culture challenged, but isn't that exactly what Jesus Himself does?"

So now you have Jesus on your 'side', and  the "traditional" church, those who "traditionally" assemble as God has instructed, are only participating in "rituals,' customs and culture, and you pick out an Old Testament verse to condemn hundreds of years of the faithful body of believers serving, and sharing Christ, sowing seed, leading millions to Christ. Cool.

You may not even know it, but there actually are bodies of believers that  love the lord, serve their part in a local body, raise their traditional family under the guidance of a Godly shepherd, who preaches the word (called a sermon )elders and deacons, and have generations of faithful believing friends, sold out to sharing the gospel, and supporting other missionaries with the same 'traditional' calling.

I think I'll continue the ritual, as will my wife and children and grand children are.
And you can enjoy your exclusive home church with your buddies in fellowship hanging out, studying God's word, and what he would have you do, what you are accountable for, as the spirit has led you, to serve as you part in the body of Christ God has called you to..

I thought we had some common ground to share, Michael.
I ask a lot of questions concerning how a family would could be accommodated, mothers with babies, youth, etc. You give no answers to any of my post.
That's Cool too.

Beware you do not also become as a traditional ritualistic HOME CHURCH.....  

How many years does a church need before it becomes become traditional?

              Reminds me of the crazy 60's
              "tune in, turn on, drop out"
"abandon the established ways and stop conforming"

I guess you can see today what that has done for our non-traditional society.
    Fortunately, praise God,  I grew out of it, and God got ahold of me.

I personally do not know of one home group that lasted more than 1-2 yrs.
        Actually, today I know of none. Personally.  Means nothing, I know.

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18 ESV

 cool...

"The meaning behind this verse is that the strength and plots of the devil and his fallen angels shall not prevail against faithful believers in Christ i.e. the church."

Big or small, even tiny, we believers are the body of Christ, the called out ones.
The church.
I salute you Michael in your finding your  'part' in the body, and may your home church be blessed beyond measure, as my church has, and greater. Brother...

 

[Michael37]

51 minutes ago, Sower said:

"Yes, it does make people uncomfortable to have their traditions and rituals and customs and culture challenged, but isn't that exactly what Jesus Himself does?"

So now you have Jesus on your 'side', and  the "traditional" church, those who "traditionally" assemble as God has instructed, are only participating in "rituals,' customs and culture, and you pick out an Old Testament verse to condemn hundreds of years of the faithful body of believers serving, and sharing Christ, sowing seed, leading millions to Christ. Cool.

You may not even know it, but there actually are bodies of believers that  love the lord, serve their part in a local body, raise their traditional family under the guidance of a Godly shepherd, who preaches the word (called a sermon )elders and deacons, and have generations of faithful believing friends, sold out to sharing the gospel, and supporting other missionaries with the same 'traditional' calling.

I think I'll continue the ritual, as will my wife and children and grand children are.
And you can enjoy your exclusive home church with your buddies in fellowship hanging out, studying God's word, and what he would have you do, what you are accountable for, as the spirit has led you, to serve as you part in the body of Christ God has called you to..

I thought we had some common ground to share, Michael.
I ask a lot of questions concerning how a family would could be accommodated, mothers with babies, youth, etc. You give no answers to any of my post.
That's Cool too.

Beware you do not also become as a traditional ritualistic HOME CHURCH.....  

How many years does a church need before it becomes become traditional?

              Reminds me of the crazy 60's
              "tune in, turn on, drop out"
"abandon the established ways and stop conforming"

I guess you can see today what that has done for our non-traditional society.
    Fortunately, praise God,  I grew out of it, and God got ahold of me.

I personally do not know of one home group that lasted more than 1-2 yrs.
        Actually, today I know of none. Personally.  Means nothing, I know.

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Matthew 16:18 ESV

 cool...

"The meaning behind this verse is that the strength and plots of the devil and his fallen angels shall not prevail against faithful believers in Christ i.e. the church."

Big or small, even tiny, we believers are the body of Christ, the called out ones.
The church.
I salute you Michael in your finding your  'part' in the body, and may your home church be blessed beyond measure, as my church has, and greater. Brother...

Hi Sower, 

It seems you have some knowledge of home fellowships so if can provide evidence of them not being Scriptural I would gladly discuss that.

Children that come to simple in-house fellowship get all the attention and care they need, some really enjoy being part of the group, others are provided for in rooms or outdoors with interesting activities, and we come and go from each other's places or go on trips any given day off the week, always helping each other as required and sharing meals, children included. Great fun. Love it. 

I've actually been deeply involved in Youth and Children's Ministry, many years as a teacher with the AOG, also as a Royal Rangers' Chaplain (in uniform with gold cross & Lieutenant's pips), and was Superintendent of the Children's Ministry for a while in an Apostolic satellite assembly that began in a school near us. We would end up with as many as 18 children in our swimming pool at home, and would have certain fellowship families bringing their offspring to swim nearly every day in summer. These children have grown up now and some are married with children of their own.

Ministry doesn't just happen in specially designed buildings with sacred furnishings and tightly structured services, it happens where two or three are gathered in the Lord's Name

Sure, people come and go from every fellowship, and since 1996 when the Lord provided me with a Nissan diesel truck, it has been put to use moving fellowship folk and families across town and to other parts of the country. It's called "mobility". Saints come and go in each other's lives and even if we help someone who bites our hand later, it's walking by faith that counts, not pleasing man.

Blessings from Michael37